The making of 4 by foreigner - featuring lou gramm

Intro: 

Dan Nordheim: You’re listening to Life of the Record. Classic albums told by the people who made them. My name is Dan Nordheim. 

Foreigner formed in New York City in 1976 by Mick Jones. Jones had grown up in England and had years of experience as a session musician, while playing in multiple bands, including Spooky Tooth. He envisioned starting a new band for the songs he was writing and recruited Ian McDonald, Dennis Elliott, Al Greenwood and Ed Gagliardi. While searching for a lead singer, he recalled meeting Lou Gramm who had been the singer of the Rochester, New York band Black Sheep. Gramm passed the audition and the lineup was complete. They signed a deal with Atlantic Records and released their self-titled debut album in 1977. Their second album, Double Vision, was released in 1978 and continued their run of hit singles. Rick Wills took over on bass and they released their third album, Head Games, in 1979. At this point, they wanted to make a change musically and decided to let go of Ian McDonald and Al Greenwood to become a four piece. For their fourth album, they brought in producer Mutt Lange and began recording at Electric Lady Studios. Foreigner 4 was eventually released in 1981. 

In this episode, Lou Gramm reflects on how the album came together. This is the making of Foreigner 4.

Lou Gramm:  Hi, I'm Lou Graham and we are talking about Foreigner 4. So, you know, thinking back on the Foreigner 4 album, considering the first three albums, which were very good, we needed to make a giant step forward style wise and performance wise. And honestly, I think Mutt Lange was just the producer to make sure that those kinds of things happened. He didn't let us sit back on our haunches, we weren't reliving our earlier successes. Mick and I had talked about it, we thought it was do or die to come up with an album that no one would forget.

I think after the first album and Double Vision, which were both very successful, we had a number of top 20 hits on both of them. And by the time Double Vision was out, we were headlining tours and it was pretty exciting. And so we began, at some point when the Double Vision tour ended, we began working on songs for our next album. And we made an effort to get Roy Thomas Baker to produce because of his credentials and that he was a idea guy and, and he would really bring the best out of your music. So when we, when Mick and I would work on our ideas, we would leave them more or less half-baked, counting on Roy's input. And when we got to the studio that Roy liked to record in, in California, we began recording, and the parts of the songs that weren't really finished, still didn't get finished. So Roy wasn't contributing those important ideas, same time kind of ideas that he, he gave Queen and other groups he was involved in, a little extra oomph, you know what I mean? And we didn't feel like we were getting that. So we were desperately trying to do something and we were running out of time. And so, you know, I'm proud of the album, it is a good sounding album, but it is just not, I felt Roy at his best would've really made the most out of the room we left him to produce and try his oddball ideas and stuff, and do the things that he had done to the Cars and other albums like that. We left him room to do that and when he didn't really come up with those ideas, the album sounded unfinished. And on top of that, the cover of Head Games was of a young teenage girl in a boy's bathroom, wiping her phone number off the wall. And some people could really jump on that and say, “It's really bad, why would you do something like that?” And, and a lot of them did, especially in the Bible Belt. And it was meant more tongue in cheek and fun than anything else. It wasn't descriptive, it wasn't overtly sexual. It was just a cute idea, I thought. But couple that with the first single “Head Games,” before you know it, we started getting, airplay on the album cut from areas like the big Boston radio station and all through the Bible Belt. And then even in my own Rochester, New York newspaper, they showed pictures of people in somewhere in the Midwest, throwing all their Foreigner albums and t-shirts and everything into a big bonfire, saying that they were not pleased with the content of the album. It was the least selling album of the first three by far. And after we toured to support Head Games and that tour ended, Mick and I started having talks on a regular basis about, “if we couldn't come up with a really great album for our next album, that we should probably hang it up.”

We want to go through a little style change too, to be current and not to be one of the bands that every album is basically the same songs done differently. The music style changes from album to album and so should the style of playing, you know, you can't away take away your basic style, but the way you approach a song should be different. And we were, as we looked back on the Head Games album, it was a lot of the same bass riffs and things like that as were on Double Vision and the first album. And so, Mick and I were thinking, “if we don't write a new album that's gonna knock people's socks off and we don't get the type of playing that is innovative and different to suit these different types of songs, we're still dead in the water.” So it was a very difficult time for us. And we talked to Ian McDonald and Al Greenwood and let them go. And it wasn't easy to do. We'd been through a lot together and, and they were good friends and very good players. But I mean, if you're a band, you can't expect to ride the same horse through every album. You've gotta, you know, if the style of the songs is a little different, you should play a little different. You know, I'm not saying change your style completely, but use your creativeness and your professional innovation to make yourself sound a little different from album to album. And we didn't want the traditional Hammond B3 or the keyboards with the, (sings busy organ line) one of them. You know, we wanted something different. The idea for the album like this was to carve out a new characterization of the band and a new image too. And I definitely think Mutt Lange, for what we needed him for at that time of our career, did a great job, a great job. We had started writing songs, we had even written a basic slice of “Jukebox Hero,” and I don't think Mutt was really sure of what to make of it. But he did like the songs and he had his own ideas for production and most of them were very good. And I think that his work with AC/DC and Def Leppard certainly were convincing factors for us to have him as our producer. We had heard some studio stories from engineers he had worked with that he could be a real task master. We had to reign him back a little bit when he started, when he wanted to push us a little bit more towards the AC/DC style. You know, we had to sit him down and say, “We're way, okay with toughening up our sound a little bit, you know, and as you could see with “Urgent” and “Jukebox Hero” and stuff like that, but we don't want to start screaming out the lyrics in an AC/DC way where the first verse sounds no different from the third verse in its tonality, you know, where you would normally, you know, you'd rock the first and second verses and the third verse, you'd really give it balls out. He wanted balls out from the word go. And I says, “you know, Mutt, I could do that, but that's not our style, we like to build. We certainly send the message that it's going to be a tough song on the first verse and build it a little more on the second verse. And then the third verse is straight out, you know?” I says, “that's the way we are.” And he understood. Our recording started at Electric Ladyland and it really, that place had a had a strange awesome vibe to it, knowing that that Jimi Hendrix recorded there years earlier. And the people there were awesome. They had great equipment, and the sound of the live room was unbelievable. And we really did enjoy our time there. And it went by pretty fast. Even though the album took over a year to record, there was no downtime, there was no, “well, what do we do now?” We were working straight through.

“Nightlife” 

Yeah, “Nightlife.” You know, I remember Mick and I working on that. That again was, it was a guitar riff that he played me and I loved it. And we worked on it and I started to come up with a melody and a lyric and he was edging me on, “Yeah, yeah, that's it.” And we ended up with a rough of it that was very exciting and continued to flesh it out and work on the arrangement and the melody and the lyrics and stuff. And the more we worked, the better it got, and when we got into the studio, recorded it, it was on fire. We'd be in the studio 12 or 14 hours a day most of the time. And while we were exhausted at the end of that day, we also felt pent up and we wanted to get out and tear it up a little bit. So we'd go to a rock club and listen to a band and sip a few drinks and let all the frustrations and the workday kind of bleed out so we could relax. And then when we wanted to go back to our rooms, we would be ready to chill, you know? And that got to be a semi-regular thing for the band. When we would go real late, we would do that. Sometimes we'd go too late and nothing would be open, you know, and it was fun times. And I think that nobody would keep going where they couldn't make the session the next day or anything. You know, there were a few guys that were a little bleary-eyed, but we definitely had a time where we expected ourselves to be in the studio and ready to go, and everybody showed up. If it got to be too late, I wouldn't push my voice past a certain hour, because I know when you push it, when your voice is real tired, that's when you do damage and you can't sing for a couple days. So even if we went till two or three in the morning, I'd be done singing by 11:30. We were in New York City at Electric Lady, and I lived in Katonah in Westchester County. That was an hour and a half from Manhattan, and I was commuting back and forth to Katonah every night because most of the guys in the band had apartments in New York City. They would catch a cab, in 20 minutes, they'd be home. I had an hour and a half drive no matter what time we left the studio. And there was some pretty frightening nights when I was just so exhausted and a little bit lit up.

“Juke Box Hero”

I remember that I had bought a house in Katonah, a small two bedroom ranch. And in the basement I set up my drums and a TEAC 4-track reel-to-reel machine. And I had a guitar and an amp and I can't remember what keyboard it was, but it was a basic keyboard. And the first thing was the (sings synth part) “don, don, don don.” You know, I started doing that. I didn't have the right sound, the sound that we ended up having. But I did have a sound that kind of replicated enough to get the feeling across.

And then I started singing the melody and working on the words. And I had the foot pedal, the drum hitting it in time. And I remember when it got to the, (sings) “it took one guitar,” you know, and then the (sings guitar chord), it took me two days to find the right chord on the guitar, cause I'm not a guitar player, you know? But when I found it, I let it rip. And basically I called my friend, Bruce Turgen, who's been with me for, been playing in my bands for years. And he put the bass part on for me. And we went in to see Mick and some of the other guys in the band when we were gathering material for Foreigner 4. And we played him that idea and you could see his eyebrows go up. And I knew him well enough to know that when he was interested in something, he would flare his nostrils. You know, they go, (makes breathing sound) and I saw that go (makes rapid breathing sound) and I go, I didn't say anything wrong, but I thought to myself, “Whoa, whether he says anything or not, he's interested.” So after we played him the short tape and stuff, he says, “Yeah, not a bad idea, you know?” And I go, “Oh, thanks Mick.” And so by the time Bruce and I had done the demos, he did the keyboards, the bass, and the guitar. So it sounded pretty powerful when we played it to Mick and the rest of the guys in the band. And so Mick was desperately trying to find the chords. And Mick is great at chords, maybe the best chordist, rhythm chordist that I've ever worked with. But he couldn't quite figure out what Bruce was doing, and Bruce showed him until when Mick found it out, he started laying into it. And the smile on his face was so big, you know. And Bruce had a big smile too cause Mick got it right, you know, and then we made a very rough tape of just the chorus. We went from the bridge to the chorus and we were like, “That's it, that's it,” you know? He played me the idea and I expanded out a little bit and we were both kind of dancing around in our little work room. And then we showed it to the band and they flipped. We kind of knew from that point on that that was gonna be a big song for us.

When I was about 11 years old in Rochester, we have a hockey arena that served as our music arena too. And it was called the Rochester War Memorial, and I think it held about 13 or 14,000 people at the time. And I heard that Jimi Hendrix was coming there and I was determined to go see him. I liked his music a lot. It wasn't my favorite type of music, but there was something about him and that style that I had to see live, you know? And I told my parents I was going over to a friend's house for a few hours. It was on a Saturday night. And I didn't even go to my friend's house, I thumbed down a main road and ended up right at the War Memorial where he was playing. I had no ticket. Get it? I had no ticket. Didn't have a ticket. And it was a sold out show. And I walked down the area between the two buildings and that's where they had the backstage door and they were letting people in who had passes and stuff, you know. And every time they opened the door to check somebody's pass, I would stick my head in there. You know, and see the audience and see Jimmy on stage, get a twenty second, thirty second slice of what was going on, you know? And then they'd kind of pull me back in and shut the door and take somebody else's backstage passes and put, every time they let somebody in, I'd stick my head in there and get another 20 seconds of the next song, you know? And the people were going crazy. By the end of the night, people in the upper area towards the balcony pulled their seat cushions off and started lighting them on fire. And I couldn't believe my eyes and the police came out and stopped the concert and it was insane, you know? And that, that's when I kind of backed off and left. I didn't want to get caught up in any of that. But the thrill of seeing Hendrix and listening to him live for, you know, I didn't even hear one complete song, but I heard seven or eight pieces of a lot of songs and it really inspired me.

In 1965, I heard that the Rolling Stones were coming to Rochester, which was outrageous because, you know, no one ever thought that they would come to a second tier city like Rochester when they were playing all the big, big cities, you know? But they did. And so I was having dinner the night of the concert and when dinner was finished, I asked my mom and dad if I could go with some friends to hear the Rolling Stones, and when the concert was over, I would be right back, you know? And they looked at each other and kind of looked like, “What, are you kidding me or something?” And then they turned to me and they said, “absolutely not.” You know, I says, “but Dad,” I says, “that's an awesome band.” I said, “I may never have a chance to hear them again.” He says, “Louis, if you were a little older and you were a little more responsible, you know, you could go with some friends of that age. But at 15 years old,” he says, “there's too much going on there that could end up getting you hurt or in a lot of trouble. The answer's no.” And I pulled my chair back on the table and I says, “that sucks,” you know? And I stomped off to my bedroom and talking to myself and shouting, you know, “what a bum deal that is” and stuff. I got into my bedroom and started changing into my jeans and my Madras shirt and a black denim jacket. So when I was all dressed and stuff, I had a little bit of money in my pocket, you know, and I started breathing real slow and deep. And I opened my bedroom door and it was in September, so it was still a little warm out. So the front door wasn’t closed, the front door was open, and just the screen door was latched. So I ran down the stairs, ran towards the front door, hit the screen door, the door slid open and hit the back of the house and slammed again. And I was running down my street towards a main street that would lead to the War Memorial. And as I was almost down to the end of the street, I heard, “Louis, I'm gonna kill you.” And I knew it was my dad and I started laughing, and then I stopped laughing because I believed he meant it, you know? So I was a little worried, but I didn't stop. And when I got to Spencer Port Road, I stuck my thumb out. And the first car that went by picked me up, and it was about three or four other kids going to the concert. I had a friend, a lady friend, who was very cute and had her blonde hair cut just like Brian Jones. So I got to the concert, I met that cute girl and three or four of her friends, and they had the tickets. And we went in and we started to enjoy the concert. You know, it was rowdy. It was rowdy, but it was rowdy like any Stones concert would be, you know, because Jagger was inciting the audience. And the kids just ate it up. So all of a sudden, the chief of police walked up and took Jagger's mic off the stand and started walking up to the front of stage. He said, you know, he says, “It was not easy to get the Stones to come here, but we did it. We got 'em to come here. And the place is sold out and they're playing all the hits, isn't it what you guys wanted?” And they're all going, “yeah, yeah, yeah!” He says, “Then why are you acting like little school kids?” He says, “This is a momentous occasion for, for Rochester, New York.” He says, “and you're blowing it.” He says, “throwing things and screaming and shouting through their song. Not after the song, through the song.” You know, he says, “I'm so disappointed in you. I don't know what to say.” And then he says, “Well, I do know what to say. This concert's over.” He put Jagger’s mic back on the stand and the concert was over, The lights, all the lights went out, crew started tearing down the equipment and stuff, and you could see Jagger and the Stones pissed off, you know, in the back of the stage. And then they just, they left for the dressing room. So this Brian Jones little girl, her name was Kathy Evans and we went for the side door that led out into that alleyway and that's where the Stones had their limo waiting. So there were about 15 or 20 other fans out there and security. And one-by-one the Stones ran out and waved to everybody and got in the limo. And the last one in was Brian Jones. And I remember hearing Kathy screaming, “Brian!” and she runs up and throws herself on top of the trunk. Just as the limo driver puts the car in drive and does this, kind of pulls away with a little “err” and she goes off the back of the trunk onto the ground and hits her head hard. And I hear the, I see the limo lights stop and Brian gets out and runs over to her and kind of helps her halfway get up and ask her if she's all right and, you know, feels the bump in the back of her head and says he thinks she'll be all right, you know, and, and helps her to her feet and gives her a kiss, a kiss on the cheek, you know, a hug and a kiss on the cheek, and then ran back to the car and they took off. And she was in heaven for the rest of the night. The friends that we came with, one of her friends' parents were away for the weekend and we went over and, and stayed at their house and drank and ate and had a lot of fun. And then I looked at the clock and it was quarter after two and I told my dad I'd be home by 12:30, 1:00 at the latest. I had no ride and I didn't have enough money to get a ride. So I talked to Kathy and everybody pitched in all the dollars and change that they had till I had a big thing of change and, and maybe five or six dollar bills. We called the cab and the cab started driving me back to my house. And I knew how much I had. I think I had $7 and about 75 cents. And as we were about two miles away from my parents' house, I could see the meter hit $7 and 75 cents. And I didn't know if I should say something or not, but, so I didn't say anything and he pulled down the street. I told him the house is right here. And he said, “7 almost $8.” And I says, “I only have about $7 and 50 cents.” I said, “I'll give you everything I have. I just don't have quite enough money to pay the bill.” And he sees all the change and stuff with a couple $1 bills. He goes, “I don't want that.” He says, “You keep it. Have a good night.” So I stuffed it all back in my pockets and I went up to the front door and I had my key. I was gonna unlock a door and it was already unlocked. I thought, “Wow, this is strange. You know, my dad doesn't need the door unlocked.” So I went in and the whole house was dark. I shut the door and I locked it. I thought to myself, “My goodness, can it be that I made it without any trouble?” So I took two steps going up the stairs and the light behind me goes on and there's my dad sitting on the sofa in the living room, and he goes, “Louis?” And I go, “Oh, hi Dad.” Like, “What's wrong?,” you know? He says, “I hope you had a lot of fun at the concert.” I says, “Oh Dad, it was so awesome. My friends were there. We met a lot of other people who I knew went to the concert. It was all,” I didn't tell him anything about the trouble, you know? And he goes, “Well, that's good, I'm glad you had a good time.” He goes, “cause I wanna let you know you are grounded at least for three months.” He says, “no activities after school, no activities on the weekend, and you don't leave the house.” I says, “Three months, Dad, come on. Really?” I said, “that's horrible.” I started walking up the stairs slowly with my shoulders hunched over, and I got in the room and I went, “All right!” You know, because that didn't mean anything to me compared to seeing the Stones, you know?

We would always close with “Juke Box Hero.” So we'd come off the stage after “Hot Blooded” and the lights would dim and then you would hear, (sings synth part) “don don don don.” And then the synthesizer going and the people were just screaming. And then the spotlights would go on, the people screaming and going crazy, and then the band would come out and take the stage and start the song. So it was the best closing song in the world. And it wasn't a big hit. It was “Urgent” and “Waiting for a Girl,” and those were big hits. I think “Juke Box Hero” was the fourth single on the album. By then, the album was played out, you know? I mean album radio played the song like crazy, you know, got a lot of plays, a lot of sales on its own from album radio. But when they finally put it as a single in top 40 radio, so many people had heard it already that it wasn't a big hit on singles radio. But I didn't care. I knew it was a big hit, and it still is a classic today.

“Break It Up” 

“Break It Up” was a great song that Mick and I composed and it had a different kind of vibe to it. Mick and I were both Procol Harum fans and there was just a couple little similarities in that style that I felt we weren't infringing on it or copying them. It was just that more than us, a nod to them a little bit, you know? But I thought it was a great song and it did pretty well in the charts. Not terrific, but it was one of the later songs of the album. But even when a song was only a mid-charter, when we used to play live, people’d go bananas for those songs.

It was melodic, but the choruses were very heavy (sings) “I don't wanna break it up.” You know, that was very cool stuff. And it was so powerful to play live when we toured that it was one of my favorite songs to do in the show. When we have a great song, we don't try for the same thing again. Some people do. We don't do that. It's pretty vastly different from “Cold As Ice.” But “Break It Up” was a great song that had its own uniqueness to it. And when Mick and I were writing it, we just came down after that second verse. He played the chords. It was softer chords that was more, more like a Hammond or something, just as a pad, you know? And we started working on a little piece that was more or less a, I don't know what they call it, but it was an aside, you know? And it was more or less the main character talking to the girl who he loves, he's talking to himself and, (sings) “I asked myself, what's wrong with me? How could I be so blind? I tried to give her everything and I see her walk away. I'm begging you, begging you please. Don't break it up. Take a little time and make it up.” Yeah, it was a good song. A lot of fun to play.

“Waiting for a Girl Like You” 

The added on instruments at that point could be special guests that were well known around the world, you know, and I think with Thomas Dolby, we proved that on Foreigner 4. I think when we got some of the basic tracks down and we had talked about what we thought the track needed to make it kind of different and left of center a little bit, you know? And we wanted people who were creative and didn't need to be coached on what to play. They would learn the song and cut loose. And Thomas was perfectly the guy for that. He could take direction too, which was great. He had no ego about his playing, but when we told him what we'd like, “and after that, do what you like.” We didn't have to tell him twice. It was pretty awesome to hear him play.

I mean, when he strips a little bit away of the artsy stuff, he can rock. He had somewhat of a reputation already. And I remember reading in interviews from rock magazines that he had done how he really slammed the basic rock world in America and the bands that were up and coming and becoming very big in stature in the states as, I don't know, I can't remember what words he used, but he wasn't very complimentary. And then when Mutt said he wanted to call him to see if he'd play on the album, I thought to myself, “Don't waste your time.” You know, “he wouldn't even give us a listen.” And he called Thomas and told Thomas not to say anything about anything. “Let me just send you the tape and see if you're interested in being a part of it.” And he sent back a note to Mutt saying that he did want to be a part of it and sent some ideas, which we all liked. And then he flew from England to New York and he stayed about three or four days. He was supposed to play on one song. I think he ended up playing on three or four. And between, “Urgent” and Juke Box Hero” and “Waiting for a Girl,” my goodness.

I remember being in Mick’s little music room in his apartment, and he played me, on a cassette, you know, the opening piano line, and I was looking at him like, “Whoa, what's this?” Then he started singing, “So long, I've been looking too hot. I've been waiting too long.” You know, and that's all he had and I thought, “wow.” I says, “This has incredible potential, Mick.” So we worked on it long and hard. It was not an easy song to put together because it could have gone so many ways, you know, it could've ended up very smooth and I don't know what the word is, but this song had a lot of angst to it also. And as we progressed writing the song, the stronger it got, and I remember when we finished recording it, we played it for Ahmet Ertegun, the chairman of WEA. And he flipped out. He loved it. And it was a strong single. It got to, I think it got to number two in the charts. And it was kept out of the number one spot by Olivia Newton-John's “Let's Get Physical.” That song stayed number one for 12 weeks and we were number two for 12 weeks. And finally her song fell off the charts off of the number one spot, and we were like, “all right.” She fell in number two, and we fell in number three, and somebody else had number one. So we were the longest running number two song in the history of rock.

I remember, I had some rough vocals that were okay, but I was, I went in fairly early, about 9:30 in the morning and Mick and Mutt were in there, all set up, ready to go. So they began playing the intro to the song, and I was all ready. As the intro started, the door where you went to the studio opened and this beautiful dark-haired girl, not dressed real like she was going out or anything, but dressed very nicely. Came into the control room and walked down the three stairs and right in front of the board there was a sofa. So people, guests could sit there and listen. So she sat there as I sang the song, and she had a very nice look on her face. And every now and then, there'd be a little, just a little hint of a smile, you know? And then it wouldn't go back to serious, it would just go back to attentive, you know? And as I was singing the last out courses and the ad libs at the end, she slowly got up, she smiled at me, nice big smile, and turned around and walked up the three stairs and left. And when I was finished with the song, Mick and Mutt said, “Great job, Lou. Really great job.” And I says, “Who, who was that?” And I didn't say anymore, I went into the control room and I says, “Who was that attractive young woman that came in and sat down?” And they looked at each other and they looked at me and they said, “What are you talking about?” I says, “You didn't see her? She came in just before I started singing and walked down the three steps and sat on the sofa and gave me all the attention in the world while I was singing. And every now and then, just a hint of a smile. And when the out courses came, she got up, she gave me a big smile and walked out the door. You didn't see her?” “We didn't see anything. We were looking at the levels and watching you and this and that.” I says, “oh, okay.” And I thought to myself, “Pretty sly, you guys, pretty sly.” So they, I think they sent her in there to get the most out of me. So I would give the most emotion. Give the best performance. And to this day, Mick has never admitted it. And you know, I could still leave it as a big mystery, but knowing Mick and Mutt the way I did, I think they put that together for me. Nice job guys.

It was out of character. It wasn't that we were so averse to ballads, but at that time, there were a lot of rock bands who had big hits with ballads, and at some point they didn't focus on the rock hits anymore. They were just writing ballads. And that kind of disgusted me. And so after “Waiting for a Girl Like You,” I mean there, obviously the rest of Foreigner 4 was pretty powerful. And when we moved on, after touring for a year and a half, on Foreigner 4, we started working on Agent Provocateur. And the first song that Mick showed me when we started working in his little studio again was, “I Want to Know What Love Is.” And it was beautiful. And I didn't, I told him how potentially great the song is, but in the back of my mind I was thinking, “Oh no. Oh no, not that.” And sure enough, I think there were some good songs on Agent Provocateur. I don't think it was as strong as Foreigner 4. But on that album, I think Mick became totally turned on by the synthesizers and was buying the synthesizer and that synthesizer and bringing it in his little music room and working on ideas and this and that. And so of course when we did, “I Want to Know What Love Is,” I think Thomas Dolby helped us out again on that. And it's an awesome song. And it was our first number one song after four albums. It was on our fifth album. And we finally made number one, it was number one around the world. It's a great song, it's a great honor. But the rest of the album didn't deliver the rock edge that we were noted for and popular for. And as we played songs from that album, I could tell that the songs we played from that album, the applause on it was very reserved and half-baked and for “I Want to Know What Love Is,” it was crazy of course, which made me happy. But the reserved applause for the other rock songs made me very worried that we were losing our rock audience. And after the next album it was more of the same. And it was difficult to, you know, you would get the same great response for the early rock songs on the first two or three albums. But after Foreigner 4, you know, there wasn't much in the way of rock songs to play. The ballads led the way after that. And that's not the kind of band I wanted to be in.

“Luanne” 

In a band that I was in in high school, Luanne was the our keyboard player's girlfriend. And she was beautiful looking and very sweet personality and the keyboard player used to treat her like crap. And the rest of the guys in the band, and I could see that. And we felt bad for her, you know? And I started to develop a crush on her, but I wouldn't do anything since she was still dating the keyboard player. Well, eventually he dropped her in a very terrible way and moved to California. And I was gonna let a little time sell and then ask her out. But she got another boyfriend right away and they were married. So it was just something that I think about sometimes.

Oh, that's another song that I put together in my basement. And again, with the TEAC 4-track, I think I played the guitar to a click track and then sang the vocals. And then, my friend Bruce put the bass part to it. He also played the keyboards to it and sang the background vocals. And it was a great demo and again, we brought that to Mick. Mick liked that one because it was kind of a takeoff on a Buddy Holly song, not a particular song, it was just his style, you know. And Mick is a huge Buddy Holly fan, so he liked it, helped in the arrangement and had a ball playing the parts, you know. And iit wasn't a hit or anything, but it got some album cut airplay and it was fun to play live for a while.

There were also management and the record company that had their own ideas of how the running order should be, and we would glance at it and just kind of put it aside. You know, they weren't getting it. It was very hard, there was a lot of different ways that were good. And I know we put it, Mick and I particularly put a lot of thought into it, and we liked our, the running order for the first side to begin, and the first side to end. And the last song on the first side will make you want to turn the album over and play the second side. You know, we're talking about albums, this is the old days. Then the first song on the second side should kick your butt too, you know? And the last song on side two should make you want more. And I think we succeeded in that. It may not have been everybody's favorite running order, but it proved to be an excellent one.

“Urgent” 

I remember Mick's original guitar riff, which I heard first. And the attitude, even with a drum machine was obvious. It was, he was going for an R&B type type thing and it was pretty awesome. And we worked on the lyrics and Mick mostly wrote the song, but I had contributions too. And then when we mixed the song in the middle section, Mick did a guitar solo that was really great. However, as we heard it back after it was mixed, we thought something was missing. And so we took the guitar solo out and put it aside so if we couldn't find anything else that we liked, we could put it back in. And myself and I think the drummer Dennis Elliott, were looking through the Village Voice to see who was around the area playing. And we discovered that right down the street at a small club was Junior Walker All Star Band. So we saw that and I think we all had the same thought at the same time. And we just stopped everything, put our coats on, and walked down to where he was playing. And when we got there, he only had three songs left to do and he was done for the night. But we listened and it was great. His band was really good. His son was playing drums. And we all knew in our minds that if he could play like we remember him playing, it would be perfect for the song. When they finished their set, Junior went to the dressing room and we started talking to his son and told him who we were. And he was like, “Oh, no kidding.” Well, and we told him that, that we were working on a, an original R&B song and we thought that Junior would be perfect to play on it, you know, and we asked him if he would talk to his dad about coming to the studio three or four blocks away, spending about an hour and just, just playing the solo on it. And so he talked to his dad and we all walked down to the studio. It was Electric Lady Studio. And so we had him in the isolation booth, and he was warming up and stuff. And then we played the track for him, and when it came time for the solo, he was playing sweet soul. You remember Junior's song, (sings) “What would it take to get your love for me?” you know? And we were like, “Junior, that's good stuff, but this is a hard R&B song. We need you to honk like you used to honk on ‘Shotgun’ and some of the other things.” And he goes, “Oh, you want that? Okay.” So he played and he started to loosen up and playing like that. We said, “Yeah that’s great. Junior, another one, please?” And he did another one. It was even better. “Junior, one more.” And he did one that was even better. And he says, then he, after that take, he says he took his mouthpiece out, he goes, “Okay, that's it for me.” And we were looking at each other like, “Do we have it?” You know, so he said goodbye and we told him that we would send him a check, you know, for his participation and give him credit on the album for the solo. So what was gonna be an early night of just going to see Junior, ended up about three or four in the morning piecing together the best parts of the three solos to make him into one bitching solo.

It's an awesome, awesome solo that he never played that night. He played pieces of it and we put the pieces together and made it into one dynamic solo. And the funny thing is, so the album came out and about three months after the album came out, we had a show headlining the Forum in LA and we asked Junior if he wanted to come and listen. And he says, “Yeah, I'd like to come and listen.” He says, “but I'd like to come and play also,” you know? And we said, “Really?” He says, “Yeah, I wanna come up and play ‘Urgent’ with you guys.” So we said, “fine,” you know, and our road crew kept him on the side of the stage until it was time for him to come up. And he comes up in a chartreuse purple velvet striped long coat with the old fedora straw hats on, like a zoot suit, it's called. They were popular in the thirties. It was a style thing. So he came up in that and before the song started, we didn't announce him, we let him play first, you know, played the song. And then at the end of the song we said, “Ladies and gentlemen, you've just heard the great Junior Walker,” and the place went bananas. And he thanked us and we thanked him and we kept in touch over the years and it wasn't long after that one until he passed away, but it sure was a memorable time.

“I’m Gonna Win” 

I know the drum heads were loosened up a little bit, not to give it such a tight snare drum sound. It sounded more like a field drum from a marching band, (mimics drum sound) “dooo.” There was snares on to it, but it wasn't cracking, (mimics drum sound) “khhh khhhh”, you know? And that was done purposely. But there was no click track or drum machine mixed in at all. It was all Dennis. And he was loving playing like that. And it was, it is a pretty awesome song, I think. We had some good slower songs and we had some good medium tempo rockers, but this one was really just, you know, getting our armor on and laying into some heavier stuff.

Oh yeah, I love that song. And it was a lot of fun to play and I think Mick played great in it. His guitar sound sounded great, and Dennis Elliott's drumming was terrific and it might've been too heavy to be a single, but it sure was a great album track. And while it wasn't a single, it got a lot of album airplay. It was pretty popular to the point when we would play it live on the shows, we'd get really good response from the audience because they've heard it on the radio. It was a lot of fun to do, and took me to the top of my range at the end. (sings) “I'm gonna win you. It's a matter of pride. Deep down inside, I'm gonna win. I'm gonna win, I'm gonna win. Ooh, you pay the price No more, Mr. Nice” (laughs). 

“Woman in Black” 

Oh, I love that song. Mick showed me the basic guitar intro and groove for it. It definitely had a different kind of flare to it, and it was pretty different from everything else on the album. And when we started writing the words to it and I got to sing it, it was a lot of fun. I grew to really love that song. I think it could have been a single myself, you know, it had all the elements. It was very infectious and the playing was terrific. And I think that there were just, not to boast, but there were so many exceptional songs that as a single, that one got overlooked. But I think it's very strong.

I knew my spot on that song. I think the music and the sexy kind of rhythm to the song was in the forefront. And I was just a storyteller, you know, and I enjoyed that role for a change. And I thought the lyrics were very cool. And the chorus, (sings), “Woman in Black, she a mystery, she’s everything a woman could see, you know, she got a hold on me. I mean, she won't let me be,” you know, very cool stuff. And I love the solo Mick played (sings part of solo) “duh duh nuh duh nuh nuh nuh nuh”. It was very Spanish sounding, like Spanish guitar almost. It had a certain flavor to it that that was unlike any other song we had ever done, you know? And it was fun to play live, really fun. And the audience loved it. I think just from listening to the album, they liked it on the album. And when they heard it live, they really went for it.

“Girl on the Moon” 

I remember Mick playing the opening riff of the song for me. Again, this is all in his little music room where there wasn't much room for more than a drum machine. He had a little guitar and a keyboard and he had a very cool sound on his guitar. I don't remember what he called it, but it was some effect that had just come out that Mick played to get the unique sound for the guitar. And, you know, we worked on the vocal together, the melody and stuff, and the words, and it was, I just think it was really special.

It was a very cool rock song, but it was different. Very different. And I think by and large, that's what helped to make that album, so popular and sell so many, and our ability to play those songs live. And our ability to be on the road for a year and a half straight, which I don't think that's a record, I think other bands have gone longer than that. But for us, it was a long time. When when we end finally ended the Foreigner 4 tour, we were also burnt, I mean, really burned.

“Don’t Let Go” 

That actually was one of the first songs that Mick and I worked on for the album after “Urgent” and some of the other ones. But  it was right in there and it was a good song. It was a little poppy for my taste, but I liked the melody and I liked the drums and the attitude and stuff. It just could have been a little darker. It was a little too bright and cheery for me. You know, that's not my style.

We do it around the mic, we work on the parts and we do it around the mic. (sings) “Don't let your love go. Just let your love flow. Don't let go. Don't let your love,” you know, it sounded great. It was just a little too poppy for me, you know? Even though I liked the way it turned out, I could think of a few other ideas that we had that would've suited that album better. The creativeness was at the highest level I thought since we had become a band. And I think the different rhythms, the different styles and the different subject matter and our attitudes of how we performed them, in my mind, made that album, helped it to be as strong as it became. There were reviewers who had killed us before that begrudgingly, begrudgingly gave us good reviews. And Rolling Stone had killed the first three albums, and begrudgingly gave us a good review, even though they slammed us in a couple places. The overall review was very good and we counted that as a major victory. When we began to tour, performing the songs from the other albums and the new Foreigner 4 album, we were selling out amphitheaters and, you know, when we would play with, on football fields with six or seven big bands, we were now number one and number two. We were headlining or the special guest, you know, so our prestige, our level of prestige took a big jump thanks to that album, you know, and stayed there thanks to that album.

I mean of all the albums that Foreigner did, I love parts and songs from all of them. I think this was the most cohesive and the most determined that the band has ever sounded. And I think, Mick and my partnership was at its best. And the album that we help to create speaks for itself.

Outro:

Dan Nordheim: Visit lifeoftherecord.com for more information about Foreigner. You’ll also find a full transcript of this episode and a link to purchase Foreigner 4, including the recent deluxe edition. Instrumental music is the song “Times Change, People Change” by Shan & Dannon. Thanks for listening. 

Credits: 

"Night Life" (Jones/Gramm) 

"Juke Box Hero" (Gramm/Jones) 

"Break It Up" (Jones) 

"Waiting for a Girl Like You" (Jones/Gramm) 

"Luanne" (Gramm/Jones) 

"Urgent" (Jones) 

"I'm Gonna Win” (Jones) 

"Woman in Black" (Jones) 

"Girl on the Moon" (Jones/Gramm) 

"Don't Let Go" (Jones/Gramm) 

© & ℗ 1981 Atlantic Recording Corp.

Foreigner:

Lou Gramm: lead vocals, percussion

Mick Jones: guitars, keyboards, backing vocals

Rick Wills: bass, backing vocals

Dennis Elliott: drums, backing vocals

Additional personnel:

Thomas Dolby: main synthesizers

Larry Fast: sequential synthesizer (2, 3, 10)

Bob Mayo: keyboard textures (3, 4)

Michael Fonfara: keyboard textures (6, 9)

Hugh McCracken: slide guitar (9)

Mark Rivera: saxophone (3, 6), backing vocals

Junior Walker: saxophone solo (6)

Ian Lloyd: backing vocals

Robert John "Mutt" Lange: backing vocals

Production: Robert John "Mutt" Lange and Mick Jones

Recording and engineering: Dave Wittman (chief engineer) and Tony Platt (basic tracks)

Second engineer: Brad Samuelsohn

Assistant engineers: Edwin Hobgood and Michel Sauvage

Mastering: George Marino at Sterling Sound, New York

Episode Credits: 

Intro/Outro Music:

“Times Change, People Change” by Shan & Dannon

Episode produced, edited and mixed by Dan Nordheim

Additional mixing and mastering by Jeremy Whitwam