**THE MAKING OF Vs. by mission of Burma - FEATURING Roger Miller, Clint Conley and Peter Prescott**

Intro:

Dan Nordheim: You’re listening to Life of the Record. Classic albums, told by the people who made them. My name is Dan Nordheim.

Mission of Burma formed in Boston, Massachusetts in 1979 by Roger Miller, Clint Conley and Peter Prescott. Miller and Conley had met while playing in the band Moving Parts prior to forming Mission of Burma. Martin Swope started doing tape loops and live sound for the band and ended up becoming the fourth member. They signed with Ace of Hearts Records and released the “Academy Fight Song” single in 1980. The following year, they released the Signals, Calls and Marches EP before turning their attention to their first full-length album. Vs. was eventually released in late 1982.

In this episode, for the 40th anniversary, Roger Miller, Clint Conley and Peter Prescott look back on how the album came together. This is the making of Vs.

Clint Conley: Hi, this is Clint Conley from Mission of Burma, and we're here with Life of the Record to talk about Vs. You know, knowing that this interview was coming up yesterday, I thought, “Oh, maybe I'll listen to it, which is not something I would normally do. I can't remember the last time I listened to Vs. So, I put it on, I didn't make it all the way through. Listen to some on my way into work. Listen to a little bit on the way back. I think I got as far as “Weatherbox.” But I will say I felt so proud really, of the music. You know, it just connected to me immediately. I just felt my innards getting all charged up and just, I thought, “Yeah, I looked like an idiot to the other cars on Route 128.” (laughs) Because, you know, I was definitely (makes roaring sound), I was into it. Cause those songs are killer. They're just blood and fury and sweat and chaos and confusion and (sighs) all that good stuff, you know.

Roger Miller: This is Roger Miller here talking, Roger Clark Miller. I was a guitarist and vocalist in Mission of Burma and we're discussing the album, Vs. When I moved to Boston, I was not going to play rock music cause I had developed tinnitus in one of my ears. But the scene in Boston was just too good to not do. So I joined a band called the Moving Parts, which a year later broke up and became Mission of Burma. Me and Clint met there and we got Peter on drums. And when Vs. was made…All my life, I felt that I had one really excellent rock album in me and when we recorded Vs., I go, “That’s it.”

Peter Prescott: I'm Peter Prescott. I played the drums and screamed a lot in Mission of Burma, and we're talking about a really old record called Vs. I think of it as one of the more high quality things I was ever involved in, you know. You get a few perfect moments when you're a musician, that kind of felt like one. All I remember is that we were hitting on all cylinders, we were playing a lot at the time. We loved the batch of songs we had, and Rick Harte, our producer, he kind of imposed us a, a sort of a high fidelity upon us, and this was where our interest in making a gnarly, dissonant, fucked up record coincided with his Hi-Fi.

Roger Miller: Ace of Hearts Records, basically put us on the map. I mean, if it hadn't been for Ace of Hearts, we probably would've just been another struggling band perhaps. And that was Rick Harte. And he had access to a recording studio that he could use in the wee hours, like from 10:00 PM to 5:00 AM. So that's when we did most of the recording. And that was a commercial studio, they did commercials. And so the studio was real dry. “Academy/Max” was recorded there, Signals, Calls, and Marches was recorded there. And so it's got a non lively quality and we hadn't felt like we had captured the sound yet. I mean, Signals sounds really flat. That's partly the band's fault we wanted to use no reverb. We're taking a queue from like Gang of Four and stuff like that, and it was a mistake. And “Academy/Max” were like overproduced because my amp sounded terrible. So we just threw on more and more guitars and that's what gave “Academy” that really rich, lush sound that made it so appealing to people's ears. It was the fact that my amp was so bad we had to correct it.

Clint Conley: And so, with Signals, we were naive when we were, you know, had no studio experience. And we knew records that we liked the sound of, and to us, they sounded raw and immediate and unmediated, you know, straight to tape kind of thing. So we thought we'd do that. So we go in to this studio, it was kind of a fancy studio. It was way beyond our level (laughs). Thank you Rick Harte, who was, you know, just a superb steward of our waywardness. So we said, “Yeah, we're just gonna lay it down. It's gonna be minimal overdubs. We don't want any, you know, any treatments or fairy dust sprinkled on it. And we just want it raw and immediate in what it is.” And so we recorded it and we mixed it. We didn't do much to it, and it sounded just flat. It was a lesson for us. It was a lesson that, “Oh so in order to get kind of a live, immediate visceral sound, you actually have to work at it. You have to fool around with mics, you have to do this, you have to do that. You can't just trust a tape recorder to capture the excitement.” So when we went into Vs. to record Vs., I do remember it was quite conscious on our part. We wanted a big room, a room that was more live, had more natural ambience. And I'm not exactly sure how we ended up down in Rhode Island there at Normandy.

Roger Miller: We got in there, we drove in. It was a, it's normally about an hour drive from Boston. It took us three hours of intense blizzard. We're going like 40 miles an hour. But, you know, we were in good spirits cause we kind of had a renegade thought process anyways. And we were starting to get more comfortable in the studio ourselves and so Rick was totally game for that. I mean, that's also what they were doing in, you know, on the west coast. A lot of the bands would just come in and record their records. I mean, Hüsker Dü didn't have any records out yet, as far as I know. But, you know, Black Flag would do that kind of stuff, Minutemen. And so that aesthetic was working in our favor. We'd record five tracks at a time and whatever track was good, then we'd never have to do that song again. And then pretty soon, you know, then we'd do another batch of five tracks. And then after the end of the day we'd say, “Okay, these songs are all ready, and these other ones that didn't make it, we're gonna have to put them in new five song batches.” Cause we didn't wanna do the same song over and over again. You know, some bands do that, but Burma was a band that played all the time, just like a lot of those bands at that time.

Peter Prescott: We were never supposed to be a band that took a song and did it 12 times until it was perfect. But that's what we did with the 45. That's what we did with some of the songs on Signals, Calls, and Marches. And I don't think we wanted to go there on that one. The five songs set idea was to just, “Keep rolling, keep moving, don't worry about perfection.” I mean, if he heard what he thought was a mistake, he would stop us. But in general, it was very aimed at getting live energy into it.

Roger Miller: And so we wanted to just go in and record basically a live performance all in the same room at the same time. I cut all my lead vocals. They're all from the live performance. Like, uh, I over dubbed some, a little tweak here and there, but mostly I just used the vocals as we cut them live. It wasn't, you know, “Here's the rhythm tracks, now we'll do the vocals.” So that was the approach. We really liked a lively sound. We wanted things to bleed. We didn't want things to be really tight and tidy.

Peter Prescott: At least as opposed to the previous recordings we did, we wanted it to be more gnarly and nasty and hard and confusing (laughs). We had not held back on the earlier recordings, but Rick Harte, I think to his credit, took a, a bunch of wild noise mixed in with anthemic choruses and you know, on those earlier records, he made it more palatable. At the time, he made it a nicer version than what we were. This record, like I said, he took off the gloves and we took off the gloves.

Roger Miller: The band was going at the beginning. We started before Martin was part of the band, and he moved into our house where Clint and I lived. And he had brought a tape recorder he had got from one of my brothers, Lawrence, and I was playing piano and he was doing guitar loops, kind of, you know, a Fripp and Eno kind of thing on top. And you know, it was fun. It was just something I was doing on the side while Burma was starting. And then when I had the song “New Disco,” that's what brought him in. Like it was just a test on that song. And everybody really liked that. And we thought, well, what about doing a tape loop on something else, I don't know what it was. And then we both thought, “Well, if he's doing the tape loops, he should be doing sound back there.” Because otherwise he has no idea how to do tape loops up front. So he became the tape loop sound guy. As Clint said, after about a year he started showing up in the photographs. And that meant that he was apparently in the band. So he just gradually just never went away. Pretty soon, “Oh look, he's still here, we’d better include him in the band.” It was kind of a inadvertent act. We're a very casual band in a way. We hardly ever made decisions. Things just happened.

Clint Conley: I would guess that Martin did his loops later or that they weren't being fed back through our room headphones, because that would be, might be distracting, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I know that we were trying to record live

Peter Prescott: Live obviously he did it as we were playing. I don't think we ever really played with, with him. More or less, you're listening to the whole barrage of sound rather than individual things. So that's where the loops fit in. So it was fun to hear what he would do and how they might be different from the last time we played the song.

Roger Miller: Before every show, he'd be up there cutting two or three fresh tape loops, you know, just getting ready for the show.

“Secrets”

Clint Conley: You know, I listened to “Secrets.” I just think that's the best opener for an album we could have ever, ever come up with. I mean, it just sort of throws down the gauntlet. It just sort of lays it down, it's fairly coherent. Says, “Okay, are you gonna be with us or not?” It gives you a little time to spend with us, and then it falls apart in the middle and it's all chaotic. And like, we're challenging, you know, “Are you gonna be with us? Are you sure you wanna listen to this?” And we're kind of prodding the listener. And you know, it's like, I don't know, three quarters through the song before any vocals come in and they're just kind of trancey, overlapping kind of weird things. And it's just, you know, I just think, “Damn, you know, that's a good opening song to an album, especially one in 1980-what, what are we saying? 82? Yeah, 40 years. Especially then because, I mean, then it was really challenging. Now we've been through the mill, but you know what, it still sounds very provocative and intense.

Peter Prescott: We always wanted to get away from verse, chorus, verse, chorus, guitar solo, verse, chorus. And we found that like pop format, miserable. And this is even saying like all of us grew up on the Kinks, the Beatles, the Stones. So we had like a traditional rock upbringing, I suppose. But I think by the time we get to that record, we were like, “Let's throw some of this crap out and just make a song that works exactly the way we want it to work.” And I mean, that's the perfect example because it's this completely repetitive blur of guitar stuff, drum solo in the middle, and then you know, go out with a variation on the beginning. So I thought that was a great song to start with because it sort of consciously broke those rules.

Roger Miller: The song, “Secrets,” how that song was written, it was very early, like Pete was in the band by then, but we were just finding out how we really played. We didn't really, we hadn't staked the boundaries extremely strongly yet. It's just basically one chord through the entire song. But then I tried to vary that in as interesting of a way as I could. Contracting and expanding again became the dynamic rather than going to a chorus and a new chord change instead of a new chord change. It was more like contracting and opening up and releasing and, and then non-releasing. And then of course, the first thing you hear is there's no guitar, it's a drum solo. And Pete's attitude, you know, I said, “Pete, you do a drum solo.” So of course he's not gonna play a Ginger Baker-type drum solo. Instead he does this random thing and Martin's tape looping it. An element that I really like about it is the very first vocal you hear on the album is Pete screaming (makes screaming sound), you know, before it goes somewhere. And that, you know, that kinda sets the tone for the whole damn thing.

Peter Prescott: I've always been ambivalent about being a drummer. I mean, that's kind of why I'm not a drummer at the moment. Those guys were really helpful in allowing me to do more than just drum before I actually started singing or writing anything. It was a natural outgrowth of the drumming anyway, to scream every now and then. So I think those guys were, because I'd been doing it live anyway, I think those guys were like, “Yeah, leave that stuff in. It fit into the idea of trying to have a lively out of control feeling to the whole thing, that it was gonna combust any second.

Roger Miller: We recorded the song also for the “Academy/Max” single, but it was terrible. It just came out, it just sounded horrible and it sounded really good on this one. And I think I dubbed an acoustic guitar on it. Probably the acoustic guitar just kind of broadens it up. Again, it doesn't change the chord, it’s the same damn chord. But it broadens the sound pallet of that chord, like textural variation because there was no chordal variation. We had like compression variation, release, straight ahead drone, vocals, and you know, and adding new textures. That's how you make variations on something that has no chord changes, which is very, it's a very non-western approach. I mean, Martin would just do stuff and we hardly ever criticized him for it. It was like always good. So I just know that I liked his loops. He also loops the vocals at the end (sings “woah”), he just captures the three part harmony. One of the only melodic moments in the song. And then he has that going backwards too at the end, which I think is a really cool effect.

“Train”

Roger Miller: In the sense that our introductions often don't prepare you for the song. So I guess that's a Burma style. Like the beginning of “Train.” We all just kind of ease in, you know, Clint's playing the three chords on the bass so I can make sounds around it until the singing starts. Then I finally join him. I mean, that's kind of a traditional, for Burma, way to go about things. Things kind of materialize, kind of out of nowhere, and then gradually come into focus until you say, “I see what they're getting at.”

Clint Conley: Well, I listened to “Train.” I don't know why we put that second on the record. It's such a kind of unfinished, that was reflective of that time. I was in the late stages of bad behavior during the recording of this album. So, I mean, in terms of specific memories of how the songs came together or the recording session itself, I was in tough shape. I was in a hospital soon thereafter. I mean, I'm not ashamed of it. So, luckily made out of that situation healthy, 40 years later, a very lucky dude. But in terms of memories of how, eh, I'm afraid that was lost. I don't know why we put that second. I mean, I would've put that way last. That one I'm a little embarrassed about. Oh God, the vocal sucks. It does. I sound so weak. I sound out of breath. I sound like I'm about to die, which is not too far off.

Roger Miller: I always thought it was a real cool song. Mostly Clint's songs are a little more traditional than mine, but quite clearly not always. And I liked it cause it just kinda started in one place and ended somewhere completely different. He just kept going with the idea.

Peter Prescott: I think we were all getting better at arrangement, our own deranged form of arrangement. And that meant, you know, like going from open parts that were kind of floating around to locking in all together. Whenever I could stray from a regular beat and they would allow me or push me to, I took it. The fun was going from the noise and dissonance into like a melodic part. I think those kind of shifts kept us all interested.

Clint Conley: You know, it's called “Train” because none of the parts repeat. You're in one car and then you kind of go into another room and that's slightly different. And that segues into a third room or car. And then the fourth, maybe there's five, I can't remember, but it's just these modular connected bits.

Peter Prescott: I think Clint probably brought in those three sections, but then we had to figure out how to play them. Yeah, it was always a combination. I mean, those guys, in general, always brought in songs that were like three quarters finished. They had lyrics, melody, they had like, pretty much where it was going and then the group would finish it. I think that's how that song got there.

Clint Conley: I actually think the transitions all make perfect sense, all feel like that's where the song wanted to go. But I couldn't in my brain, I think I was just, I couldn't go back or repeat or modify or figure out a way out. I was just kind of working my way down. Something about that is also reflective of where I was at at that point.

“Trem Two”

Clint Conley: Oh, it's totally, it's totally challenging. I'm thinking we put “Trem Two” third and it's like, I don't know, I just thought that was awesome. Because it's just so unexpected. And let me just say for the record, I think that song, and I'm praising my colleague, I think that song is a masterpiece. I thought when I listened to that song, I said, “Where does a song like this come from? Who thinks up a song like this?”

Roger Miller: I brought “Trem Two,” and I called it “Trem Two” because Clint had a song called “Tremolo,” and this was the second tremolo song by the band. So the title has nothing to do with anything except for the physics of it. I remember bringing it into the band in ‘81, sometime in ‘81, and Clint and Pete said, “Roger, this just isn't working.” And I was kind of bummed out cause I'd never brought a song in that didn't work once we got our working method. And I thought, “Well, that's weird.” And then I just kept playing it in my little North End apartment and I go, “No, no, no, no. Let's try this again.” And the second time I brought it in, Clint and Pete were right on it, like immediately. They totally got it. I mean it's a kind of a peculiar song for us because it's not, the forward motion is slowed down by the tremolo pulse. And that may have caused it to be a little hard to understand.

Peter Prescott: I think it was playing off the tremolo pulse of the guitar and once a loop was mixed in, that wasn't quite synced up with the guitar. We're like, “Yeah, that's where it's supposed to be. I mean, a tremolo isn’t exactly even. I think it always varies a little bit. There were lots of times we played it back in the day and in the 2000s where it was hard to stick right in that rhythm. Sometimes I would have to adjust a little bit to the tremolo, you know, just to make it sound like it wasn't completely detaching from it. I never found that horrifying in any way. But yeah, it added an extra challenge. Instead of

Roger Miller: Instead of being the fast pulse tremolo, the tremolo’s more like a delay. So like the pulse is real slow and I hit the note in the hollow of it, so it goes, (sings tremolo rhythm) ba ba ba instead of going ba, ba, ba, ba. Like I don't play on the loud part, I play on the quiet part of the tremolo, and then the tremolo expands it afterwards. So it has this odd way of almost not being in the room, like it's kind of pretending it's not really there. But Martin does do a really nice loop on that while I'm playing the riff at the beginning. Again, we have a long introduction before the vocals even start, you know, we just were not out to satisfy the listener immediately. But Martin taped, you know, he made a tape loop of my main riff, slowed it down, and I can't remember if it's, I don't think it's backwards and then just fades it up at various points. So when I'm singing, you can hear the band playing. There's this real slow sound underneath it, which gives a really, it really suited the atmosphere of the song. Like, you know, it's got a very, it's a very much a mystery song.

Clint Conley: I mean, it was really hard to sing for me. It was totally Roger's idea to have the octaves, the split octave singing. I think the bass part I came up with for that is almost all cordage and it's all double stop bass chording from start to end and some of that sounds pretty good. You know, the counter melodies and all kind of blend seamlessly. I think it answered the call of the song in, in a certain sense. So I feel good about the bass part. You know, I think that's one of my more creative constructions.

Peter Prescott: And also it was as noisy as most of the stuff was, it was so controlled and hush-like. It has that little rave up at the end, but I think we all liked the idea that like, we never felt like everything had to be an assault. You know, we kinda like the idea that it spans like 180 degrees instead of just sits in one place. So I think we always loved that song and, and it was a great way to break up the noise.

Clint Conley: It's just dreamy, floaty, kind of liminal, half asleep, half awake. “Where are we?” What else do I remember about the song, just that middle part where Roger says, “Everybody stop playing and let's just sing and do it over and over, over. Where thoughts are reborn.” And I think that's so Miller. I mean, my nickname for him is Love Bead. He's, you know, a spacey dude. You know, he’s a bonafide OG hippie and that never, he’s still Love Bead. So where thoughts are reborn? I'm going, “Wow. I'm with you brother. I'll go, I'll, I'll go there.” Just over and over. I just love the repetition, the serial, awesome. I love it.

Roger Miller: I like that one quite a bit. Again, that's just the band live, my vocals are live. I think Clint may have recut his. It's just the band live, except for in the middle there's this kind of Chinese water torture kind of sound, and it's prepared piano. My first use of prepared piano on a record. They had a piano in this place we're doing overdubs and I put a couple alligator clips on the strings and there's this (sings) “Where thoughts are reborn (ding). Where thoughts are reborn. There's the ting that just keeps going throughout it. That's the only, I’m pretty sure that's the only overdub on that song.

Clint Conley: I actually was starting to, I thought I was gonna cry by the end of it. That's how moved I was. I mean, I haven't heard it in years. Maybe that's it too. But I mean it just gets me going. I'm just heaving with it, you know, I'm just, the whole body is just involuntarily swept away. It's like a strong tide or something, it’s awesome. That's just, one of Roger's all time great achievements. And again, I go back to that time in contextualizing it. No wonder people were confused, you know, when they heard us. I mean, there was nothing really like that. It was, you know, it was MTV and kind of cute girls in striped shirts and all the rest of it. And hardcore was coming on. You know, we had bands that we felt like friendly with, but I mean, we were never part of any sound, particularly, I mean, our friends in Pylon or Gang of Four were just completely, completely different, dance, kind of beat oriented. It makes me very proud. That's the one thing I, you know, I really do think we carved out our own little thing. You know, we were just kind of entertaining ourselves and ended up in that strange spot.

Roger Miller: Vs. got really, really bad reviews or no reviews. For a long time, people just couldn't make sense out of it. In Boston, it wasn't reviewed till over half a year after its release. Like, you know, the papers just wouldn't even touch it. And I remember, I think it was in Option, but it might not have been Option, but there were two reviews, two different reviewers reviewed Vs. One said, every song on here is great except “Trem Two.” And the other reviewer said, “‘Trem Two’ is the only good song on here. And now when, I mean, we don't play anymore, but when we would play it, ‘Trem Two’ is just part of the, you know, our pantheon or whatever you wanna call it. You know, like now it's all integrated. But at that time it seemed like, you know, some of these songs seem so diverse from each other, like almost contrarian. I remember another review was saying, “Side one sounds like they're shopping for a style, and side two sounds like rock music.” I go, my first response was, “Well fuck you. Like, you listen to the Beatles albums, they have like a country tune next to a, a Paul crooner and then a Lennon pissed off tune, so why can't we at least be as innovative as The Beatles? And why are you fucking complaining about it?” You know, it really kind of irritated me. But in the long run, those guys had to eat their words, you know.

“New Nails”

Clint Conley: Yeah, that first side of that record is pretty challenging. There's nothing more challenging than “New Nails.” I mean, that's Roger at his most malarian. You know, it's just all gnarly and so strange. So very strange. And just a fantastic thing.

Roger Miller: I think it was one of those that I just picked up my guitar one day and my hand was way high up on the neck, and that's where, on the bottom, it's like I'm playing an F and on the top, something like an F#. Like super dissonant, but like two octaves apart. And that was kind of the beginning of the riff for me. Yeah, I mean, the riff is so absurd and ridiculous. You know, there's no chords. There's a low note on the guitar and a super high note, and I just said, “Hey guys, here's the riff.” And Clint came up with that, like this, you know, rumbling, animalistic bass line. And Pete just followed along with the drums, just almost contrary to my own, to the guitar riff, which I really like. Again, that's what we would do if one guy was doing this, someone would do something else.

Peter Prescott: That's one of the sort of gnarly, like Captain Beefheart, Gang of Four choppy guitar rhythm things. I didn't think it was a bad thing to have one of our songs that was a tad less abstract in the lyrical approach and a tad more specific, pointed. So yeah, that's another one I dug. You know, furious and fucked up as it was (laughs).

Clint Conley: Roger's spouting about goats and satyrs and Dionysus (laughs). I love it. I mean, we were just throwing these things out there and we were just so kind of intrinsically antagonistic. It's like, “We know you're gonna hate us, so here we go!” I mean, there was passionate support from people. That's what kept us going. But in general, we just felt like it was always a struggle. It was always working against the tide. It was always like, “Uhhhhh, this crowd is really gonna hate us.” And that's built into that. I mean, “New Nails” (laughs). It's pretty much poking people with a hot prod.

Roger Miller: You know, I have pretty mixed feelings about organized religion. So that was the topic of the matter. I remember one time we were, touring in the south, must have been late ‘82. and we were on a radio, me and Clint were the chosen ones to do interviews. And the interviewer, it turned out it was a Christian station. And so they finally got to the point of like, “Oh, why did you write the song New Nails?” And we had to kind of defend ourselves without, you know, being thrown off air or something like that. It was a very weird kinda moment. And a couple other friends of mine, I had to explain the song a little bit. But you know, I like it, it's just got this jaunty thing, you know, (sings) “When I walk the shows and Galilee.” It's comic really. But you know, it's intense too. And you know, the repurposing of religion for political power.

Peter Prescott: I've never had too much use for organized religion. So when he started writing sort of an anti-Catholic song, I was like, “Fine with me” (laughs). I suppose if there is a song that sounds a tad more dated than the other ones, it might be that one just because it's relatively specific about who he's ragging on. That said, it was a blast to play.

Roger Miller: And that was where I brought in my cornett, which my band, Sproton Layer, in high school, it was guitar based drums and trumpet. That was the band. But I always kept playing cornett cause I played French horn in high school and cornett’s much easier to play than French horn. So I played it off and on in various ensembles and I just thought this one needed the cornett. And Clint, he had in name for it. Like it wasn’t gladiator trumpets, but something like that (laughs). I also really like Martin's loops at the end where I go, “Oh no, what's this? All these crimes committed in my name. Oh, well,” and he just speeds them up and slows them down. So they sound like, you know, crazy demons swirling around in the air trying to fuck everybody up. Martin's loops there were, were really spot on.

Peter Prescott: You know, it was a band that we always knew that like, whatever we did, someone wasn't gonna like it. So you get used to that and you say like, “Okay, then why are we worrying about what they're gonna say anyway?” You know, I think we widened out on that record and that was one way we did that. If we can go over in this direction of noise and confusion and gnarly sounds, we can go pretty too.

“Deadpool”

Roger Miller: It's a classic Burma chord that starts with just your finger across the entire fret. Nothing but one finger, which nobody uses that cord except for Mission of Burma, and then some open strings on the top, which also is just what Burma did. It's a surprisingly kind of consistent from start to finish sound, like it's really broad. Yeah it's kind of slow. We call songs like that and “Einstein's Day” and “Trem Two,” we call them pacers. We have one pacer in every set in the middle. Slow it down a little bit.

Peter Prescott: Oh, I love that song. Far more than Roger or I, I didn't write that much then, but Clint just naturally wrote rich melodies, you know (laughs). I don’t know what else to call it, but like, when Clint would bring in a song, you know, I'd be like crying because it's like so emotional.

Clint Conley: I'm the melody guy. I'm the songbird. So “Deadpool,” there's songs where I think I'm trying to do something. That one's just kind of a snapshot of a state of mind or something. It's so melancholy. I think Burma 1.0, I wouldn't sing it live. I think there were very few times that we did it. I just, yeah, I had a hard time singing it and didn't like singing it. It was depressing (laughs). It's so pretty though. I mean, it's a gloriously pretty song. I mean, these spangly twinkly notes, it's like you're bathing in this sparkly bath.

Peter Prescott: I think at the same time, we had a real cynical edge. We were like, Clint was never, you know, we were never Echo & the Bunnymen. It wasn't always like that. But when he brought that kind of thing in, I thought that that added, it's in these sort of fast anthemic songs that he wrote, but it's in that one too. It has a real severe undertone of like, loss or sadness or something, which, I mean, that's what I love about Clint's songs. They can go right into your heart. And for a somewhat noisy, gnarly band, I was always glad that we were able to do that. You know, I think that's a beautiful song in that it has this sort of undertone of loss to it.

Clint Conley: It's just run through with remorse and regret, but it's beautiful. It's a beautiful song. I'm very proud of that song. I love the way it's recorded too. I like the really, really super, subtle, Swopenhauerisms. Martin's tape loops just are kind of there, kind of not there. Am I really hearing him or am I imagining it? And it's the kind of thing that just feels really reflective of, kind of wallowing in your own thoughts. These phantom remembrances kind of coming and going, flitting across your brain pan.

Roger Miller: You know, a really, really good song. Again, it's got a classic Conley thing with the cascading vocals at the end. The verse and chorus are kind of turning and heavy, but then when it gets to the end, you know, I start being a little bit of fancy guitar and shit and. You know, and the drums are loosening up and the vocals are cascading. It has a release. I mean, that's the thing I think about, almost all the Burma songs is, you know, they may be super tense and intense, but there's always a release in there. You know, like tragedy and comedy go hand in hand.

Clint Conley: I mean, what you're listening to on Vs. is like the last bit of creativity. It had really diminished by the time we got to the studio. I mean, I was not functioning as a songwriter at all. I can kind of feel it in the, I mean, “Deadpool,” for example, that song, it's pretty much an allegory about where I was at spiritually, mentally, physically. Just total stagnation and remorse.

Peter Prescott: Like a lot of things, and this is true in families too. We didn't really talk about it oddly enough. It was fairly apparent that he was having more of a problem with that than we were. We all drank and drugged in our way at the time. I don't think we knew until he went into rehab how tough a time he was having with it. I think we recognized it was more of a problem for him than us, but I don't think we knew the extent of it. And also you have a, if you respect guys that you're either friends with or that you have a band with, you have to give the person credit enough to know what they should or shouldn't do. And ultimately he did. He knew what he was doing wrong and he fixed it. And I think it's been fixed ever since.

Clint Conley: At first, you know, alcohol and drugs made performing easier for me, no doubt about that. But, then it becomes a ball and chain. You know, it's the old story.

“Learn How”

Peter Prescott: I had a couple of riffs. I wasn't any kind of a guitar player, but I could finger out ideas and I wanted to have this kind of free form rant in the middle. Geez, I suppose it's got a slight “Secrets” structure in a way. You sort of establish this riff, you have like a few lines of lyrics. Instead of a drum breakdown in “Secrets,” it's like a vocal breakdown where I'm just sort of spitting this stuff out. So yeah, I think there was a stream of consciousness like that. Just this stuff is in my head and I'm pulling it out right now.

Roger Miller: Pete was starting to write and I would go down to the basement of the rehearsal space and just, he would just show me guitar riffs and I'd just play them for him just to get him going. Cause I like to see people write, I like to think that I help other people create. Like that makes me feel like I'm useful. But “Learn How,” that was really where he nailed it. Like he went through all these, just like anybody writes, you went through picking something from this person and this person, but when he got to “Learn How,” okay, that's Pete. And that's why it appears on the album.

Clint Conley: I have distinct memories of that song getting together in the rehearsal space because, Roger was exceedingly generous with Peter. Peter didn't have musical language really. You know, he'd sit at a bass, didn't know how to play guitar yet, and he'd fiddle around with some riffs. Roger would patiently stand with him and kind of experiment with guitar parts.

And he really worked with him and I admired that. I was not in very good shape at the time, and I just had no, I had nothing to give. So I just kind of sat out and I think Peter would admit that that song could rightly be considered a co-written by Rog. I think Roger, you know, just put a lot of energy and a lot of generosity into that song and helping Peter find what he was looking for.

Peter Prescott: I just had an urge to go beyond the drums, I guess. I did want to write songs and they were instrumental in helping me do that. They were very supportive. Very supportive. A lot of people would've said, “You're the drummer, shut up and play the drums.” (laughs) And they didn't do that. You know, and I will always be grateful for that because then I kept going after the band was over. So it was nice to have people sort of glide you into the new role as a songwriter, you know? Yeah they could have easily been disinterested in it and they were very supportive.

Roger Miller: I remember that one of the major radio stations here, when the record did get some airplay, the first thing that was played was “Learn How.” And Pete was pretty happy about that. And so was I. It's like, “Great!” You know, it's also a pretty intense song to play on, you know, commercial radio.

Clint Conley: In Burma 2.0 when we started up again in the 2000s. I really enjoyed doing that live. To me, it just kind of came together as, just felt like the manifesto for Burma. It's like a call to arms. It's like, “Yeah, I don't know what I'm doing, but you just gotta do it, you know?” And it just felt so passionate when we played it. I was always happy to see it next on the list. I knew it was gonna kick my fucking ass. Cause I just have to play that bass thing over and over and over again.

Peter Prescott: Around that time hardcore started and we would go to hardcore shows and some of them were among the best rock shows I've ever seen. Minor Threat and the Misfits and stuff like that. And there's no doubt that that started to seep into Burma. Sort of like fury without compromise. And I think, I didn't want to write a hardcore song, but I wanted like a primal scream song where like everything that's balled up in your head is, is coming out. You know, I do think the guitars got louder, we started playing faster, so we've always admitted that we were somewhat influenced by hardcore at the time. I think it gave us a kick in the ass and we sort of subtly went a little less Anglophile and British stuff and sort of got a little bit more American again when, when that stuff started. So it definitely influenced “Learn How.”

Clint Conley: Listening to it yesterday, on the record, I think, “Wow, this is a pretty good version actually.” And I was particularly struck by Peter's vocals. His vocal performance I think is great on that song. I just think it's really, really good. So yeah, “Learn How,” I'm a big fan. Who else is gonna make that damn song? Nobody!

“Mica”

Roger Miller: Yeah, “Mica” is really interesting. Clint had these really peculiar rhythms and the rhythm on that I think is one of the coolest rhythms in rock music.

Peter Prescott: There was the sort of stuttery rhythm, and I didn't make that up, he did, Clint did. That was a guitar strum, and he said like, “Try to follow this. I don't want you to just play through it. Hit that accent.” So he would give drum instructions sometimes, and it wasn't throughout a whole song, but he would say like, “I’d love to hear that there.” And I wasn't put off by that because they were good ideas.

Clint Conley: “Mica” itself is another pretty strange number. I mean that rhythm, I don't think that rhythm, I don't think there's another rhythm quite like that. It's kind of this herky jerk, sloshing rhythm. And yeah, it was just kind of a strange kind of, sometimes songs, you know, that one was less based on melody. It's more a structure, kind of an interesting structure for a song. I think of songs visually sometimes, you know, I think, “All right. This and that and that and that.” So that's one of those songs that just feels constructed rather than composed. It just has a real physical feeling to me.

Roger Miller: Holly Anderson wrote the lyrics for it. She was part of the punk scene. She went out with Martin for a while and she would make mosastics. That's where the next word comes out of a letter. It's a John Cage technique. So Clint didn't write the lyrics for that one. And so the lyrics are actually quite different, a little more dreamlike, and I think that freed Clint up to approach the chords and the song a little different.

Peter Prescott: She was always a good friend, did wonderful art. I think she put together the album covers too. I'm pretty sure she did. Clint probably collaborated with her a few other times, but that's probably my favorite of their collaborations.

Clint Conley: Holly was a good friend of the band and had worked on some artwork for us. And so I had this riff and kind of song and I had this brilliant idea, “Wow, I don't have to struggle over lyrics. I'll just steal Holly's, Holly's poetry.” Because you know, I had a bunch of her stuff. And she used to do these sort of visual, she called mosastics, although “Mica” wasn't one of those. But anyhow, it's a visual kind of poetry and she used to do these grids and with letterset letters in them and they were just beautiful. And so I adapted one of her poems, “Mica,” to the music and it fit really well. And I thought, “Wow, this is great. Maybe I won't have to struggle over lyrics anymore.” And she was delighted, thrilled. Yeah I'm just really happy that that could come together.

Peter Prescott: That was one of Clint's songs where sometimes it was like he was ingesting a little bit of Roger's style. And I thought that song was the coolest meeting between those two styles. And the song, you know, I guess it has three parts, some great loops in it at the end, and going out on that kind of placid thing where they're singing almost like a round, they're going off of each other on the vocal. Cool stuff. I think we were all just turned on when someone would bring in a song and it was unorthodox. I think we were, we were always happy when we could give something some kind of a twist. And yeah, that one was great. I thought because he did take a little Roger Miller into his psyche I think when he did that. Amazing song.

Roger Miller: I just remember as soon as we started working on that song, I thought, “Yeah this song.” Literally, when I think of the best song Mission Bem ever did, that's the one that usually comes to mind. And again, it has the, you know, the cascading vocals at the end. (Sings) “What could I say to that?” And then Martin does this just astounding, he loops all the vocals. So they just don't like crazy buried monsters trying to get out of the dirt.

“Weatherbox”

Roger Miller: We were very much an E band cause E is the low end of the guitar and the end of “Mica” ends with just the low E being hammered. And the beginning of “Weatherbox” starts with the low E being hammered also. So we just cut them back to back as if they started right next to each other. On the album, there's no difference. So the tone of the bass is slightly different when “Weatherbox” starts. Let's put 'em together, boys. But anyways, “Weatherbox”, just my fuzz tone, the custom built fuzz tone Lou Giordano made. I'm just scraping with my hand up and down on all the strings without picking it. I'm muting it with my other hand and it's just, I move my hand closer and closer to the pickup and so the tone gets slightly less bright as I go along, it sounds like a percussion instrument. That's the main guitar riff. And then I made up that bass line (sings bassline), which is in a way, is just a beautiful E major 7 chord. But the way it's played in the contrast between them, again, you know, we would rarely put a beautiful chord with beautiful accompaniment and make a beautiful song. We would do, if there was something that was grating, we'd put something beautiful next to it. There was something that was beautiful, we'd put something grating next to it. Most of the time that was our approach.

Clint Conley: I mean, every time I think Roger's written his strangest song ever in the universe, he comes up with yet a stranger one. And I mean, “Weatherbox” is just bizarre. I do remember it was hard to sing. It was hard to sing. So that was a tough one for me live. But yeah, I love his guitar work on it.

Peter Prescott: He's sort of grinding sounds along with notes that become the main guitar riff. It was so rare that he would just play chords all the way through a song. He was much more interested in making parts. So that's the way the vocals, the bass part. I think the drums are a little less compositional. They kind of flow the same way all, all the way through it, just so it's got some solidness. Cause otherwise it would be everything flying around I think. So yeah, that’s, one of his stranger and more accomplished compositions, like purely as a composition. It's a pretty remarkable piece of work.

Roger Miller: My girlfriend gave me a tiny little, little brown box that would carry 45s in it instead of, I didn't have a shoulder bag. I mean, we literally, I had no money to speak of, so that was my backpack or whatever it was that would carry whatever, my toothbrush if I was going over to her house. I had sprayed it, spray painted a little blob of gray on it. Cause the gray, flat gray primer gray was kind of a Burma color. And so I had this little box with gray on it and I was living in the North End of Boston, which was a real Italian townie kind of part of town. And I was walking down the street. I heard these kids, like I looked over and they were like 20-year-olds say something like, “Here comes Deputy Dan with his weatherbox.” I go, “Damn.” I started looking around, “Well where that sounds interesting.” And then I realized they were pointing to me and that little box I had was the weatherbox. Cause that gray thing looked like a cloud and they came up and they tried to take the box from me and they were only half ass trying. There was seven of them, they could have easily taken it. And I grabbed it and I took it away. And then they went off and laughed cause they had harassed me slightly. And I walked down, I go, “They just named this the weatherbox. Those guys didn't even realize what they had done.” And on another occasion I was coming back from Chinatown or something and I got a beer at a pub and I put my weatherbox where you put your coats. And I now called it the weatherbox. And as I left, I'd walked a few blocks I go, “Right. I forgot to get my box, you know, cause it has my stuff in it, whatever it was.” And I went back and I couldn't find it. And I said, “Was there a box here?” He goes, “Yeah, this box here?” He goes, “Are there bombs in that?” I go, “Not really, but thanks.” So bomb's roll inside the weatherbox, like these were things that the world kind of gave to me. And I would walk from my girlfriend's house to my place in the North End in the morning before tours. I remember this one time and I was just wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Literally that's it. I'd be barefoot downtown Boston with my weatherbox and you'd see all these motherfuckers in their suits, you know, like these 30-year-old businessmen, super hot. And I'm just kind of cheerful with like super short hair. And they're all wearing shirts and ties with their briefcases. And, you know, “Every man thinks he does what he can when he walks through the work and he is holding the weatherbox.” Everybody has a weatherbox. It's like, you know, the albatross around your neck, like everybody's got one. In that case, a lot of external ideas gave me the lyrics and once I had that main riff, I was pretty pleased with it.

Right and then there's the solo. It's the second solo on the album where I don't press my hands onto the neck. With the heavy fuzz tone on, muting the strings of my hand. I just wave back and forth in slow motion in front of my amp, like a weather vein and the feedback goes (makes beeping noise). So I felt like I was kinda like a weather vein, like that was the premise behind the solo. And that's like a total, you might call it Dada solo or an anti-solo. You know, there's nothing heroic about it.

Clint Conley: You know, Roger's just a very sophisticated musician and his songs are very complex little pieces of machinery. That's certainly a good example. I mean, I think of myself, my songwriting is very basic, very Euclidean, and Roger is more like advanced fractal geometries. They're all just bizarre angles. Ingenious sort of couplings of strange parts. And that song is one of them, I think of that song as like a strange little engine. Who invented this thing? Again I just, I have to pat Mission of Burma of 1982 on the back. That stuff is still very strange sounding.

Peter Prescott: Certainly one of Roger's weirder songs, when he writes a song, he composes a song. He's always been a composer. In fact, if you ask them, he might say that more than a guitar player or a piano player, or a keyboard player, that he's a composer. That's what he went to school for. And that song is very compositional. The descending vocals, he really wanted all three of us to sing that. I mean that was something when he brought it up, I'm like, “Really? You sure you want to do that?” And when we finally did it correctly, it was amazing.

Roger Miller: And it's just sitting there. It's a real nice, real high F chord. And it's just a pretty descending scale cascading. And they're all completely irrational lines. You know, “Sun is falling down, sky is falling, falling, air is falling.” You know, it's all that kind of irrational shit, but it's very calming and pleasant before it goes back into the kind of machine riff.

Clint Conley: Yeah you get this waterfall of voices and it's kind of soothing and then it goes back into that weird trundling engine thing. Yeah. Miller.

Peter Prescott: See that's what I love about Roger's stuff is that he is very compositional. He is very sort of deliberate, but he can throw all that crap out the window too, and he can be a punk rocker.

“The Ballad of Johnny Burma”

Clint Conley: Yeah. I'm surprised we didn't put that somewhere on the first side, just to say, “There might be some moments of easy consumption ahead.” Yeah, that's Roger experimenting with right angles, you know, that's E A D, you know, very basic, super basic. But I love that song. I mean, it was just, it's just like a little punk pellet, you know, a little soul cleanser. It always felt good coming in between all our kind of crazier stuff. It kind of cleanses the palette. Just a lot of fun to play live because it's easy. I always liked playing the easy songs. I liked Roger’s songs that had only three chords, not thirty three.

Peter Prescott: Whether the challenge was to be further out there or more an anthemic, I think each thing becomes a little challenge. You know, like “Can we do this stupid Johnny Burma song and make it feel like it's part of this, this whole universe?” And Roger, of course, was able to do that. I mean, also we thought it was hysterical to mythologize ourselves.

Roger Miller: I had written the main chords, the verse, I don't think I had the bridge yet. And I brought it into the band Moving Parts. And the drummer who really liked rock and roll, he vetoed the song. He said it was just too strange. And I go, “Really?” (laughs). It's like, to me, I mean, I didn't realize it, but some reviewer pointed out that it's very similar to “Rumble” by, you know, Link Wray except for it's like a punk rock version. So it's faster and then it's in 6/4 instead of 4/4. But I knew that when Burma started, I go, “You know, there's something cool about this song.” And so I just wrote about when Burma started, I knew that I was, I'd finally, you know, you try to get yourself in the center of the stream, that I'd finally gotten myself in the center of the stream. And I knew when we formed that we were going to accomplish, like I was, there was no question about it. So like, it's all about Burma.

Yeah, “My mother’s dead, my father’s dead, I don't care. It happens anyways.” They weren't really dead. It was, I finally found my voice and my place to be so I could cut my past. I was no longer attached to the past, and I was now on a new trajectory. Like I'd finally found my footing. So that's what that whole first verse is about. My parents did come to see us in, I think it was ‘81 or ‘82 when we played in Ann Arbor, and we stayed at my parents' house. I mean, my dad was a musician and he loved the fact that I played music and my mom and dad were in the club when, you know, Burma played a set. And my mom the next day said, “You know, I didn't understand the music, but you and Clint had great stage presence” (laughs). And we were completely toasted. Like, that was, I just remember, you know, it was Ann Arbor and it was party and we were like really ripped. But you know, we're still spot on and we were still playing really well. It wasn't like we were sloppy, but we were running around and stuff. And you, it just amused me that mom thought that was so good and it was good, you know, she was right.

Clint Conley: Yeah, he can't get away from some weird chromatics and stuff. Yeah, that bridge is kind of odd.

Peter Prescott: We love the straight ahead things as long as we could put our little twists on it. Whenever we were more normal, then we'd put some screwy bridge on something. I think it was staying away from the predictable. Even more than that, I think it was a natural way for Roger to write. It was rare to impossible that he wouldn't throw some kind of a curve ball in.

Roger Miller: And then the chord thing in the middle, that's all like really peculiar and you know, condensed, irrational chords. But they fit because we play them with such vigor. That's very much, I was doing stuff like that even in Sproton Layer. I would make, instead of lead solos…Sproton Layer is my band in 1969, 1970. Even back then, sometimes they wouldn't be leads, they'd be what I would call chord solos. And by the chords, that's what we'd make the instrumental break out of. And that's an example of it. But it's completely, you know, the main part of “Ballad of Johnny Burma” is straight ahead rock and roll. And then it goes to that part but then when it gets to the top of that and it's just waiting there and then it goes back into the straight ahead rock and roll for the second verse, there's such a release from the tension. Second verse, I had a really great girlfriend, who I married but then got divorced and she no longer is on this earth. But it was a real exciting time. You know, “My baby twists, she twists the night away, she twists so good.” You know, was just like, it was full on punk rock mania, you know, crazy shit.

“Einstein’s Day”

Clint Conley: I think what's helped us, I mean if we have any legs at all or you know, the fact that we're talking about this 40 years later is pretty amazing. It's not because of our personalities or outrageous stage show or record sales for sure. But I think the songs are just really sturdy constructs that have held up over time. You know, tension/release, interesting melody, kind of novel structures that have an internal logic. I mean, we've all heard bands that are experimental just for the sake of experimentalism and it's just annoying as hell. Or, you know, just a little too clever by half, and maybe we can be accused of that at times. I'm certainly sure we are. But for the most part, I think these are songs that have really strong internal logic that really hold together and just sit there. And they're as sturdy now as they were then and they weren't dependent on whatever phase or fad was going on then. So you listen to “Einstein's Day” and it's just a beautiful, gorgeous song that just carries you along and raises you, and raises you, and raises you.

Roger Miller: December of ‘78, we had broken up the Moving Parts or the Moving Parts broke up. It was Erik Lindgren’s band, but we were doing a recording session of the final Moving Parts recording, and I knew that Clint would like this chord that I come up with, the “Einstein's Day” chord. And it was at the session, but I had a guitar in my hand, there was a little downtime, and I just scooted up next to Clint when he wasn't looking and just played the chord, just the main riff, that real slow, and his head just whipped around and he said, “What's that?” And I knew, it was kind of like a test for myself also. Like, “If Clint really likes it, I am onto something.” And he really liked it. So that was the first song that I wrote for Mission of Burma, because I wrote it for, there was no band yet, just Clint and I knew we were going to do something.

Peter Prescott: Before I was even playing with them, I think that's one of the first songs that Roger wrote for this new band that didn't exist yet. I remember him talking about that, that I think that cemented their interest in starting another band together. And I think they tried me out three times before they went, “Okay, he’s the one.”

Roger Miller: I didn't finish the song until we actually started playing, and I had a dream where it was me and Erik from the Moving Parts and Clint. And Erik couldn't understand what was going on, but we were by the ocean side and I had a trade and in the tray, there were these waves and every time you moved the tray, the waves would kind of go back and forth and the colors got more intense every time. And me and Clint were just looking at it going, “This is incredible.” And Erik couldn't understand it, but it was just, it was a very ecstatic dream. And so I used that dream lyric there cause I took it as, you know, validation that we were, that this was really a defining moment for us. And Erik wasn't going to be part of it, but me and Clint were, and you know, it was for both of us, a defining moment in our lives. I don't think we'd even rehearsed yet when I had the dream. We were just starting to rehearse, where me and Clint would play guitar every night. You know, just get totally blissed and play for three hours, then go to sleep (laughs).

Peter Prescott: Much like “Deadpool,” I think it's placid and tranquil and pretty. “Deadpool” is more emotionally down. “Einstein's Day” almost sounds like a celebration or something. It's like letting the light in or something.

Clint Conley: It's just, you know, kind of this glorious, I don't know, for me, kind of elation, this transcendence if some sort.

Peter Prescott: Yeah, definitely one of his more beautiful songs. Also like way cool guitar solo in “Einstein.” It's all these stretched out, like almost breaking up notes and stuff. Super cool.

Roger Miller: I mean, it's one of the few times in Burma that I actually have kind of what you might almost call like a heroic guitar solo. You know, a long solo that really develops, that's based on scales. But even there, the first note I hit, I have the tone all to bass and then I bring it up and then it gets the feedback. So by just keeping my finger on one note, I get two or three different pitches even before I leave, move my fingers. So that kind of makes me happy. It's a very, it's more of an ecstatic solo rather than, “Machine Gun” haywire kind of solo. And usually when, when I play that one, you know, particularly in the last round where we are pretty comfortable being on stage in mach two of the band, usually I would just kind of forget there was an audience and just kind of close my eyes and go. Then when I was done, I'd go, “Great, I really got it.” And then I'd open my eyes and go, “Oh right, there's an audience out there.” Cause there's a time to concentrate on the audience and there's a time to concentrate on the playing, to make the playing really good. And particularly if you're gonna do a solo, it better fucking be good, you know, otherwise you're just, you know, jerking off. I heard a real early version of it and literally my guitar solo was, I was mimicking the vocals exactly. And then I apparently got better as a guitarist and I realized that was kind of stupid to do. And then eventually it developed to a point where I could actually play a good solo. And that was, by the time we got to Vs., I was actually quite a good guitar player. But Signals, I don't think of myself as being that good of a guitarist, but by the time we got to Vs., I really think I was good.

“Fun World”

Clint Conley: Oh yeah, “Fun World.” You know, another one of Roger's infernal machines. And that one truly is like a war machine. It's just out there grinding up everything in its path. I think of, big, heavy treads, just crunching over anything in its way. That song just comes out and never stops.

Roger Miller: I think I came up with a riff. We were playing The Paradise, we might have been opening for the Gang of Four, but it's almost like, you know, I think I'd been playing, there's a couple of really killer songs on the first B-52’s record and it might have been, it was “Planet Claire.” (sings “Planet Claire” riff) Something like that. And somehow from “Planet Claire,” I got the (sings “Fun World” riff) even though it's nothing like “Planet Claire.” But that was kind of my jumping off. And I just remember as soon as I came up with that riff that there was something to it. And it's another one of the songs, like almost all my songs on this record, I'm just mostly talking. Like, “When you are young, da da, da.” There's almost no melody, but it still works.

Peter Prescott: “Fun World” was like a primal slab, even though it had almost have like a, it had toms in it, but it almost had like a primal disco beat. And I don't think we were even put off by that, especially when we heard, the second Public Image record, which largely is built around disco beats and disco bass. And just taking little pieces of that. We weren't afraid of that. It was like another kind of a weird thing to throw into the mix. And so, in a way, “Fun World” is like, has got a quasi-disco beat, but it's Roger playing a punk rock song. So that's jamming two things together that don't belong that way.

Roger Miller: Yeah, at the beginning, you know, “When you are young, they do this and this, and then the bottom below the seed, there's a pit and I'm gonna smash it.” Like that's the result. Like, “This is where they are and I'm gonna break it to pieces, you know. You could think, “Yeah, I finally found who I am and I'm going to make my mark and I'm just gonna break everything that I don't wanna have, that's in my way.” It's not, I don't wanna break things necessarily, but if they're in my way, I'm not gonna take it. Get out of my way or get smashed.

It's also got just the concept of “Fun World.” Like, you know, you'd think “Fun World” would be like a cartoon show or a kid's store, and instead it's just this, just brutal condemnation of the world. How you have to fight to survive, you know, is a very punk rock attitude.

Peter Prescott: Punk rock was never far. It was always in the DNA. I think it was really important that that was a foundational vessel that we would throw all this stuff into fire and sweat and intensity was always built into the band. And like I say, that was filtered through our version of a punk rock mindset.

“That’s How I Escaped My Certain Fate”

Clint Conley: I never got as far as “Fate” in my listening yesterday, but I've heard that one over the years, probably more than a lot of the other ones. Yeah to me that's a punk nugget. That's me trying to be the Buzzcocks. I think “Academy Fight Song” was me trying to be the Talking Heads. I don't know in my head, you know, I'm kind of thinking, “Oh, I want to do like a Buzzcocksy song or something. Yeah, that's just a punk nugget. That's another one of these little capsules that is intentionally minimal.

Peter Prescott: Clint always, I mean, you'd think from his songs in general that he was probably the biggest like punk rocker among us in terms of the melodic edge of punk rock stuff. I know he is a huge Buzzcocks fan. I've always been too. The Buzzcocks are perfect and he even has a slight quality in his voice that's a little like Pete Shelley, I think he just wanted a balls to the wall punk rock song. And after a while we were like, “Yeah, that's the one to put at the end.”

Roger Miller: Of all the songs on there, it's one of the most straightforward, like we're all playing kind of in unison. I mean, it's a perfect power punk pop song. And then Clint wanted, he wanted everything cranked through the board. So I think his vocals and the guitar are double distorted, like through the soundboard, like kind of a terrible distortion. But it's perfect.

Clint Conley: I just came up with that phrase and I liked it, and I knew it sounded like “That’s When I Reach For My Revolver,” but I didn't care. All right, so maybe I'm repeating myself? I don't know, it just seemed like such a different song. I haven't been called on it as often as I would've expected, but I had this built-in excuse. “Well, there was a third one too, man. It was going to be a trilogy. And, but then I just wasn't happy with that third one.” But that's a lie.

Roger Miller: It's a bonafide hook. Like as soon as you hear that, you're never going to forget it. You know, I mean, in a way it's almost irritating, but it does the job, you know, I'll tell you that much. And, you know, you need songs that are that easy to grasp onto, to get from there, to get to like, you know, “Weatherbox” or “Train.” You know, you need all types of songs. To me, like stuff that's really oblique to stuff that's really up front.

Clint Conley: And that's the one that I really had a visual, strong visual sense when I was composing it. That’s two parts, two disparate parts that are just kind of slammed together without much of a transition. Yeah pretty straight ahead lyrics, in some ways, maybe a little biographical, but kind of comes up to that one part and then it just shifts and you've got the end part. But they're just very modernistic and just butted up against each other. I like that concept. Something I never did before seemed to work pretty good. It was kind of like a situation and then you realize you're remembering it, like it reframes it. So “that’s how I escaped my certain fate,” like you're thinking back.

Peter Prescott: I'm sure you've heard somebody say that the tape ran out when I screamed. That was how the song ended, and then we were like, “Yeah, that's how the record should end.”

Roger Miller: The tape actually runs up and that's really, the song goes on another 15 seconds. But it was so amusing to us that it ran out and all you hear is Pete screaming and then the song comes to a grinding halt, that we just decided to keep it.

Clint Conley: I mean, I’ve seen it written that “Peter, in the middle of drumming, saw the tape was running out and screamed!” Which is preposterous. You know, you're in a booth somewhere behind a wall behind blah, blah, and he would've never seen any tape running out. I don't know, I imagine he would've been, I mean, he was always screaming back there. I think we just ran out of tape. I think it was just a big, massive mistake up in the control room. And if Peter was shouting live, I have to believe he was, It just happened to be that moment. And we had enough of the song so that it could look like a real, like an intentional decision to end it so abruptly. But yeah, I think that was a massive fuck up in the control room.

Peter Prescott: I think we did know there wasn't much tape left. I think we were aware of that and we said like, “Let's see if we can fit it.” (laughs) And we did just barely.

Clint Conley: Oh yeah, the best part was coming. No. It works for me. No, that was just about over. It was just about over. So, yeah perfect.

Peter Prescott: When we were done with that record, I think we had, I think we knew we had made a good one. I think we were aware that it was a good representation of what we were. So that's where your satisfaction has to be. You've got to say, “Well, that's a damn fucking good version of us.” And however people like it or don't like it, you can't go there cause then you just start second guessing everything you do. So that I thought we knew, I thought we were proud and knew we made a good record, but I don't think we ever really thought beyond that.

Clint Conley: I'm just grateful it turned out as well as it did. I mean it's kind of post facto for me. You know, I listen to the record and I go, “Ooh, not bad. Not bad at all.” But I can't remember making it. Yeah, that last year of the band, I was free of alcohol and drugs. So that was very enjoyable. It felt so good to be, you know, free of all that stuff I was into. So the music felt great. I loved, I enjoyed being with the guys and they were supportive and that was very important. I was very grateful for that. But that was a good year. That was a good year. And it was gratifying too, because, you know, people responded to the record. I think we realized, you know, “Well, okay, it doesn't have one of those hit Burma, you know, the Burma hits.” But what we did make was something different and something we could be proud of.

Roger Miller: The single was “Trem Two” b/w “OK/No Way.” Which was a non album B-side at that point. And I was pretty excited about it. It was like, “God, you know, one of my songs is on the single and I'll go to the record store,” and it hardly sold anything. Vs. was not a hit, you know, in any way, shape, or form. I mean, eventually the single of course sold out and Vs. became like a standard of something or other. But at the time, you know, reviewers didn't know what to make of it. We just shrugged our shoulders and said, “Fuck ‘em.” You know, “We'll just keep playing until, oops. I can't play anymore.”

Clint Conley: You know, when Roger announced that he was worried about his ears and he wanted to quit, I just took it in stride, I figured, yeah, maybe it's time for something different.

Roger Miller: When I moved to Boston in ‘78, even in Moving Parts, I had tinnitus. And in Burma I would wear earplugs in the one ear that had tinnitus and Clint also had tinnitus. It just, I don't think was as bad or bothered him as much. So he and I would both cut our earplugs so small that you couldn't see him. Cause we didn't want people to see us wearing earplugs. Nowadays everybody's doing it, you know. I remember one day we couldn't get them out of our ears and Clint's girlfriend had tweezers and was getting the little tiny earplugs out of our ears. Anyways, these are the things I remember. And then, you know, after a couple years I started noticing, I was always being told by my ears that “You're getting more fucked up. You're getting more fucked up.” And these tones would come in when it was quiet, especially, and it freaked me out cause you know, I was like, what year was ‘82, so I’m 30. And my ears were going and I'm supposed to be a musician, and so it just freaked me out too much. And eventually, you know, I said, “I don't think I can do this much longer you guys.” Eventually, from discussions we terminated.

Peter Prescott: I mean, I didn't have a substance abuse problem and my ears were not going at that time. They're a little worse now. But yeah, I was probably the one that was the most disappointed with that. It was kind of like I was a baby compared to them. I was seven or eight years younger than Roger and a couple years younger than Clint. So ultimately it ended up being a really good thing for me because it sort of pushed me out of the nest. And ultimately it was a good thing for all of us. At the time, I was the most disappointed.

Clint Conley: Well I mean, there were like 15 years after Burma, I really wasn't playing music. But you know, word would come filtering in or we'd be mentioned by this band or that. And that always made me feel great to be name checked in that way. And it just seemed like we were still in the conversation and I thought, “Wow, that's amazing.” So, you know, when (Michael) Azerrad did us for his book, I don't know, it kind of jarred something and I started writing music again. I picked up a guitar after playing with Peter in New York with his band one time.

Roger Miller: But the first inklings that people were going to catch on was in Rolling Stone, they listed four important reissues. They were Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix, Van Morrison, and you guessed it, Mission of Burma. And we're like, “How did we even get up there?” And from then on, things started to build. Our Band Could Be Your Life came out and then in the fall of 2001, someone called me up and said he would like Burma to play with Yo La Tengo at the Avery Fisher Hall at Lincoln Center in New York. And I first said, was gonna just say, “No, we're not going to do that.” And I said, “You know, I should at least ask Clint and he'll say no.” I asked Clint, he goes, “Let's do it.” And I go, “What? What did you just say?” “Let's do it. Let's play.” And so I said, “Well, I'll ask Pete. And he'll say no, of course.” And you guessed it, I asked Pete and he goes, “Let's do it.” And I was forced to do it because those guys wanted to do it. Like the band has always been like, if two people wanted to do something, we would do it. So just the world was just changing its geometrical form in the pieces were fitting together.

Peter Prescott: I think even in the 90s, in the late 80s, you know, there's an awareness of it. But yeah, something about it all clicked again in the 2000s when we started playing again. And, and then people took another look at it.

Clint Conley: Next thing we knew we were performing again. And that was just crazy. That was like a great end to the script, you know? All right, well, I can honestly say other than just kind of a vague general sense of pride about all of Burma's recordings back then, I hadn't really thought about Vs. in particular. But I was grateful to you for asking me to do this because I did listen to three quarters of it yesterday (laughs), and it was good, I was really impressed. It was really something. I think it's something to be proud of. It's unique music and it's well executed and feels very true and alive. Yeah I feel really, really proud of that record.

Peter Prescott: I feel like we hit the nail on the head. We got it right. I mean, it was like a statemental record. It was like, “This is us.” Let's put it this way, I played in plenty of bands that kind of didn't get that penultimate best version of the group out there. So I'm glad Burma did.

Roger Miller: As I mentioned earlier, I always felt like I had an important rock record in me, ever since I was in high school. And there it was, that's the record. And we were at that place where we were inventing these ideas for ourselves and you can kind of feel that creative energy happening, trying to find new ways to make things work. And I respect that a lot. So I respect those guys who made Vs. I still respect those guys (laughs).

Outro:

Dan Nordheim: Visit lifeoftherecord.com for more information about Mission of Burma. You'll also find a link to stream or purchase Vs. Thanks for listening.

Credits:

"Secrets" (Miller)

"Train" (Conley)

"Trem Two” (Miller)

"New Nails” (Miller)

"Dead Pool” (Conley)

"Learn How" (Prescott)

"Mica" (Conley, Holly Anderson)

"Weatherbox" (Miller)

"The Ballad of Johnny Burma" (Miller)

"Einstein's Day" (Miller)

"Fun World" (Miller)

"That's How I Escaped My Certain Fate" (Conley)

“Secrets,” “Trem Two,” “New Nails,” “Weatherbox,” “The Ballad of Johnny Burma,” “Einstein’s Day,” “Fun World” published by Fun World Music (BMI)

“Train,” “Deadpool,” That’s How I Escaped My Certain Fate” published by Lambent Music (BMI)

“Learn How” published by Blown Stack Music (BMI)

“Mica” published by Lambent Music/Mythco Music (BMI)

Produced by Richard W. Harte

Martin Swope: Tape manipulations, loops, percussion

Clint Conley: Bass, vocals, percussion

Roger Miller: Guitar, vocals, piano, trumpet, percussion

Peter Prescott: Drums, vocals, percussion

Engineer: John Kiehl

Cover and sleeve design: Holly Anderson and Mission of Burma

Recorded January-April 1982 at Normandy Sound and mixed at Soundtrack

Episode Credits:

Theme Music:

“Winter Cold” by North Home

Intro/Outro Music:

“Supermind” by Low Praise

Episode produced, edited and mixed by Dan Nordheim

Additional mixing and mastering by Jeremy Whitwam