the making of tramp by sharon van etten - featuring sharon van etten and aaron dessner
Intro:
Dan Nordheim: You’re listening to Life of the Record. Classic albums, told by the people who made them. My name is Dan Nordheim.
Sharon Van Etten grew up in New Jersey and studied music by learning several instruments and singing in the choir. After graduating high school, she went to Middle Tennessee State University to study recording. Though she started writing songs around the year 2000, she didn’t perform or release music until 2005 when she moved back to New Jersey. Later she moved to New York and started working for Ba Da Bing Records. She signed to the Language of Stone label and released her debut album, Because I Was in Love in 2009. Her next record, Epic, was released in 2010 and included the song “Love More,” which was recorded for the Shaking Through documentary series. After a group of musicians, including Aaron Dessner and Justin Vernon, covered the song “Love More,” Sharon reached out to them to see if they’d be interested in collaborating. She began recording songs with Aaron Dessner in his garage studio in Brooklyn. Her third album, Tramp, was eventually released in 2012.
In this episode, Sharon Van Etten and Aaron Dessner reflect on how the album came together. This is the making of Tramp.
Sharon Van Etten: I'm Sharon Van Etten and we are on Life of the Record, talking about the making of the album, Tramp. You know, it's always growing pains, I think when you take a big leap and you try something new. You know, I try to do something new every time I make a record, and this one happened to be the biggest leap I had taken at that point. And I don't think I ever would've leaned into that rock edge if Aaron Dessner, my big brother, didn't push me over that edge.
A little backstory before I get into Tramp, cause this kind of leads into how I met Aaron Dessner, but right before I made Epic, I was able to record a song called “Love More.” And it was a single before I ever made the record, and it was in collaboration with Brian McTear as part of the Shaking Through Weathervane series. And that one song did so well and I had such an incredible time working through him. It's a bit of a visual Tape Op based out of Philadelphia. It's the recording, writing, mixing of a song from front to back. And after I made that one song, I had a video sent to me that Bon Iver and The National had covered the song “Love More,” and I reached out to them to see if they would want to record on Epic, cause I decided to make this record because of that one song. And they were on tour and very busy making their records during that time, it was about 2009. And so Aaron kept in touch with me over the course of that year and just said, “Well, maybe we can do some writing together.”
Aaron Dessner: Yeah I’m Aaron Dessner and I was the producer of the record. I became aware of Sharon in 2007 or 8 because my sister used to book this tiny venue called Sycamore. It was a flower shop and a bar in Brooklyn, deep in Brooklyn, in what's known as Ditmas Park, where we all lived, and it was just like this 40 person venue in a basement below this bar that was like our neighborhood bar and Sharon played. And at the same, around the same time, Justin Vernon, you know, Bon Iver Justin Vernon, he's a good friend of mine and has been for many years. And he shared this song of Sharon's called “Love More” that she had done on the Weathervane, it's like a series where they would, you know, make a song in this beautiful studio in Philadelphia. And so she had done this song “Love More” and Justin was obsessed with it. What happened was that Justin and my brother and I covered Sharon's song at Music Now, which is in Cincinnati, this festival that Bryce, my brother had started, has kind of focused on new collaborations and we had done a set with Justin in 2009 maybe, or maybe it was 2008, where we basically improvised and one of the things we played was Sharon's “Love More,” and then she reached out. I don't remember if she actually asked if we could collaborate, but she just sort of said, “Wow, that was beautiful. And I think I know your sister,” and you know, and then I think I said, “Well, why don't we, you know, I would love to meet you because I know you live in Brooklyn also.” And so she drove over and came and I had this studio in my garage at that point behind my house in Brooklyn. And we just, I think even that day we started recording maybe because I think I just said like, “It would be fun to make some stuff.” And I think at this point she was actually living out of her car, or at least it seemed like it (laughs). Cause she'd been traveling around the country in her, I think it was a Subaru, like a old Subaru station wagon, playing house shows.
Sharon Van Etten: So at the time I was living in, well, I was house sitting for my friend Katherine, for a little while in Fort Green up the street from Ba Da Bing Records, where I also used to work. And whenever I was on tour, I would just put my stuff in storage or leave it with a friend and I would get in my Subaru and just go from state to state. And that was normal to me. And I was living in Bushwick for a little while, but you have to sublet to make ends meet as an artist in New York, especially during that time. I was constantly writing, I said yes to every single show I could say yes to and every single tour I could jump on and support. And to me it wasn't a struggle, and I never thought I was homeless cause I knew that I could always find a bed or, you know, it's very rarely I had to sleep in my car. But I kept a lot of my things in there. And Aaron had a house in Ditmas Park, which is on the way to Coney Island south of Prospect Park. And he had a studio in his backyard where he did a lot of his writing with his brother Bryce and the rest of The National. It was a bit of a haven for me during that time because we were both in between touring and in between writing. And so it was like we were fitting this in piecemeal as we had other careers and scattered lives. So it meant a lot that he wanted to make the time to make these songs with me.
Aaron Dessner: And I'd never worked with anyone outside of The National really at that point. So this was like a first moment of sort of understanding what it was to collaborate, you know, on something other than my own music. It was super early for her in her process, so there wasn't a lot of stability. And I had a house and I had sort of a life that had built a studio and like The National had had a bunch of success by that point. So it felt like a window maybe into like, “Well, this, there is, you can do this. You know, you can pay your rent, you know, make songs and still, and make it work.” And she was already well on her way, but I think this was like a real moment of like, she was able to make a record at her own speed without really having to compromise or be on a clock cause we didn't do it that way. It was just really just coming over whenever we had time. And so it was, it was comfortable in that sense. And for me, I was like, I got to work with this incredible young artist and sort of learn that I had this capacity to help somebody if I could hear some magic in their music or hear that I could add to it, that that would be a really rewarding, creative and emotional thing to do. And that you could make lasting friendships and, you know, so we were just both learning that time. It was really amazing to be part of.
Sharon Van Etten: To be honest, I was a bit intimidated to flesh out the sound of my demos because I always had this feeling of inadequacy, especially when you surround yourself by people that are successful. And I was a solo writer for, well, I'm still kind of a solo writer, but I started off being solo and I was, you know, from a very young age, I was told that any guy that wanted to play music with you just wanted to get in your pants. And so that was like ingrained in me. But he was one of the first people that I could let go of that fear that other people instilled in me and hear his ideas through. But when he had his level of professionalism coming into the studio and calling in his circle, he also gave me the permission to open the door to bring my friends in to feel more comfortable and feel in a safer place. So he helped me get the confidence to be able to speak up about the things that I heard in my head that I didn't necessarily have the language for.
Aaron Dessner: And she was learning to collaborate more openly with, you know, we had all kinds of friends coming through and playing, kind of the way that we had always made records in The National where it's basically just like whoever's in the neighborhood, like, “Could they stop by and see what happens?” So Bryan (Devendorf) from The National played drums on some songs and Ben Lanz and my brother. Ben Lanz was someone who played with Sufjan (Stevens) and played with The National and Beirut and he came, played brass and Zach Condon from Beirut just came through and that kind of thing was happening. And she was totally open to it, at least on the surface. I think it was like there were moments where we had to kind of focus in on what was true to her.
I think initially we just started to like, she would play songs for me in the studio. And then we would arrange them and work on them, sometimes we would change them or, you know, a lot of them transformed. Cause up to that point, she hadn't really had a band, so she was playing mostly by herself still. And then she did start to tour with some people around that time, so her sound was sort of evolving. It was really transformed. It was like a moment from where she was, you know, going from making sort of folk songs to making rock songs and other kinds of songs. And she's kind of kept on that journey all along. Like every time she makes a record, I feel like there's some progression. And she became such a great producer of her own music. But yeah, so that was sort of just a moment of both of us experimenting and trying things. And then there was a moment, like maybe halfway through, cause it kind of took a year and maybe halfway through I was like, “Well, are there other things? You know, other songs that you haven't played me?” And that's when she, there was a hard drive that I did go through and found a bunch of things, like actually what became “Serpents” and what became “Warsaw” and a couple other songs where, I think this happens a lot with artists where they don't always value everything or there's fragments that they haven't finished, or they tend to love the songs that they have written most recently, more than the ones that might have existed before, which is natural, but it's not always, you know, it's, I like to excavate cause you never know what's in something.
Sharon Van Etten: I am a folder person so all of these were demos that had built up over the years. And I had a late start as far as pursuing music seriously. So I started writing songs in about 2000 and my first record didn't come out til 2009, so it's taken me a long time to get these songs out. So I would send him one or two a day over the course of a month or something like that. And from my terrible demos, well, the demos weren't terrible, but my programming was because I would use my keyboard to program in drum entrances and tempos and things like that. But I can play instruments very minimally, but enough to hopefully give people ideas. But I just remember him laughing, saying, “Oh, you don't need help writing. You need help with making this record.”
Aaron Dessner: So Sharon's very specific and very different than I had ever encountered. And it took a second to kind of understand like she, at that time, she really didn't enjoy playing the click tracks. And she mostly needed to play an instrument and sing at the same time, you know, and then to build around that. If you're gonna have drums or other things after the fact, it’s not the easiest thing. And very different to how The National had worked or other situations that I had grown accustomed to. But it did mean it did actually allow for both of us to grow. And I think she, we sort of met in the middle somewhere. All of the initial recording happened in my garage in Ditmus, in Brooklyn. And Sharon would just come over, you know, in midday and stay til 2:00 or 3:00 AM sometimes. And we would basically record and produce as far as we could get without having other people with us. And then at some point, once we accumulated, we basically had recorded the whole album and then I wanted to add real drums that weren't, you know, me playing basically, or weren't programmed, cause there was some programming. And so we went back to Minor Street where she had done that version of “Love More” that was so enchanting, for the Weathervane series. And so we went back there and that's where Matt Barrick from the Walkman lives, there in Philadelphia. So he joined us and played the drums. And that's, it was a really like, important day where his, the electricity of his playing kind of bounced off everything and it sort of took its full shape. And then I think that's when we knew that we were close to finished and that we had, you know, it was definitely a moment of like, “Wow, this is something.”
Sharon Van Etten: When Aaron suggested working with Matt Barrick, I didn't know that he would want to even work on this because these songs weren't very drum centric until Aaron came into the picture. But we went to Philadelphia where Matt Barrick lives, and also Brian McTear from Minor Street Recordings, who also worked on my previous record, Epic. And so we went to Minor Street with our hard drive and brought some of the sessions in for him to play over, 'cause there were certain songs that, you know, were kind of, Aaron would call it, “circling the vortex,” where he's like, you know, “Give me a deadline, cause if it's open-ended, you know, I'll keep circling this vortex and we won't know until it's done, until someone tells us it's done.” And so we ended up bringing it to Philly just to, to try to hone in some of the tracks a bit. And Matt played on a handful of tracks that definitely made it sit just right.
“Warsaw”
Sharon Van Etten: That song, “Warsaw,” actually, you know it's funny, as we go through song by song now, I wrote a lot more on the road than I thought. That song, I was opening up for The National and I had just an instrumental version of this song on my laptop. During that time, it was all internal mic, laptop demos and so they were very noisy and hissy and it almost sounds like tape hiss, but I just remember writing stream of consciously in between sets and being on the road opening up for The National. He brought us on pretty early before we even finished the record.
Aaron Dessner: So “Warsaw” was a song that had existed as a fragment I believe on, and it was on a hard drive, but after like maybe six months of working that off and on, cause The National was touring at that time, it was the High Violet like era. So we were busy and touring a lot. Whenever I would come home, Sharon would come over and we would make stuff cause she was home. But at some point, we kind of like went and looked on this hard drive to see what other demos or ideas she had. And we found a bunch of things and, and “Warsaw” was one of them. And I remember, I think “Serpents” had already been recorded and we felt like there needed to be cousins of it, cause it was this more, there was this raw, visceral kind of punk energy in Sharon and like some anger and just kind of like, geez cause she has such a stunning voice and she can write these perfect songs that were kind of fragile and vulnerable. But then she also had this kind of raw, more aggressive punk energy. And so certain songs like “Warsaw,” I felt like that was where you could hear it coming, coming out and taking shape. And we wanted it to sound kind of fucked up. So I think it was recorded, I can't remember exactly how we did it, but there were, like, we, I remember the guitar sound. I think it may have maybe early days of like recording with my phone also, like I wanted to kind of it to sound shitty. And I think her demo had, that was the charm of it, was that it sounded pretty fucked up. So we tried to keep that.
Sharon Van Etten: I think he played guitar on that one and because I'm not, I've never been a solo-er really on the guitar, but he has such a beautiful and specific tone that I remember just taking notes of pedals and how he could control them in a way that I never even understood, how people put their pedals in a certain order to get a specific sound. Cause it's something that I didn't do until way later and I still don't use that many pedals on stage. But he has a very specific tone.
Aaron Dessner: That's when like, I feel like her character started to fully form in the whole record. And this weird, like Patti Smith lineage or PJ Harvey, like that she was in that lineage more than anything else, at least to me.
We were both vulnerable cause for me it was new, a new experience. And it wasn't like I had thought to myself, “Oh, I want to be a producer or I want to produce other people.” I hadn't had that thought. It just sort of happened. And I think for her, she wasn't really coming to me cause she wanted the guy from The National to make her record or something. It was just because I was a nice person with a studio and I seemed, I don't know, maybe it was disarming or something to have it be so, like it was cozy, you know (laughs). This was the first moment of just like falling in love with someone's music and voice, and it was really Sharon who gave me the opportunity.
“Give Out”
Sharon Van Etten: “Give Out” was one of those songs that Aaron would call deceptively simple, because even though there was, there's only three or four chords in that song, the turnarounds are never the same. And it usually, it's harder to play to than most people realize. But it's a very driving narrative song that I was afraid to add too much to. But he was very sensitive in having that song be like a slower build than the other songs. And that one is like super minimal.
Aaron Dessner: Yeah that was one where I think I recorded her playing it and singing it once maybe. I can't remember if like I learned her, if I played the guitar and she sang, or if she sang and played at the same time and then I play to it. And then those melodies, the electric guitar melodies, like the hooks and stuff just kind came to me. And that was like an early example of like a technique that, like that feeling of playing what you hear in response to a song and there being kind of a theme. But I think it was clear to both of us that it didn't need very much. It was just like, even Sharon playing that song completely by yourself, it's like complete. So it was just very, you know, very compelling and moving. I think it elevated with what we added, but it didn't need much. So like those themes that come in are really beautiful and kind of responsive to what she's doing. But like overall, it just didn't need anything.
Sharon Van Etten: “Give Out” is about a very specific moment where, when I first met someone and he was a bartender working while I was playing a very stripped down show at Sin-é Bar way back in the day. And it's one of those shows where there were two people there and everybody else was playing pool. And you know, I'm kind of an afterthought, but I think most people get used to that when they get started. And I remember looking up and he was the only one listening in the whole entire room. And that kind of began our relationship and eventually that relationship, kind of all the reasons that we fell in love were also all the reasons that I had to leave town a lot and made it harder on our relationship.
“Serpents”
Sharon Van Etten: Some of the demos that I shared with Aaron, I was surprised the ones that he picked out. The song “Serpents,” was a song that I thought was too intense and, and too aggressive. And I had never shared that part of myself musically before, other than just for myself. Cause a lot of how I write tends to be what I'm going through at the time, very self therapeutic. So it's just to get something out that I don't have the words for yet. And that was a song when I was having a really hard day. But he encouraged me to lean into that feeling and that this was a side that my fans would be open arms to hear because it was all part of my arc, part of my journey. So I don't know if that song would've made the record if he hadn't encouraged me to do so.
Aaron Dessner: That one, I think like, I guess I could instinctively feel that there was all this potential for it to be like this runaway train of a rock song. Where it's just like really intense and kind of, yeah it just felt like, “Oh, that this is a cathartic rock song.” But it needed to be formed, cause I think it was not fully formed in its demo state. And like, so we kind of like played it and then that hook or whatever on the slide just felt like, again, just that's what I heard from the moment playing it for some reason.
Sharon Van Etten: In the writing of “Serpents,” it's definitely, it's about honing your own demons and in describing it to people in the studio, again, I was very nervous about it starting to feel driven or too intense because it's one of those things that, I don't know if it's just about being a woman and being angry or being like, it's something that you have to be careful about because of how writers tend to describe women in music. But it was definitely more about overcoming something from my past in order to get to a better place. And I feel like everybody that recorded this song wanted to help me have a catharsis in order to keep moving on.
Aaron Dessner: It's also like, it's the way we were relating to each other, probably increasingly finding this electricity in her songs or something. It was like, that was the mood. So, and expressing the anger or like kind of aggression and feeling that were in the words and how she was singing. Like you needed sounds that could do that to the drums and the slides and the kind of like overdriven feeling of that song. And yeah, it reminded me, that one, I mean, it reminded me of like the, the best of like the rock songs, The National has written where they kind of just like play themselves almost. Like it's just like, you know, same thing when Matt Barrick played to it, which is kind of instantaneous that it blew up as it did.
Sharon Van Etten: That's one of those songs that as soon as like a real drummer could come into the fold, from the demo that I had in “Serpents,” you could hear my really terrible machine gun-like taps on the keyboard and he was very, he was very sensitive to what I did in a demo form and, and versus how he could interpret it in a, in a much more elegant way.
Aaron was definitely encouraging me, he was like, “You're a rocker.” He is like, “You don't even know it, but you're a rocker.” I was like, “I don't know what you're talking about.” I mean, leading up into, you know, the last couple years I was a classical guitar most of the time and I think I went from a classical guitar to a hollow bodied. And I was intimidated to play a regular electric guitar until he had his Jag. And after he allowed me to use his beautiful Jag, I found one shortly after we made that record as a commemoration of making this record with him.
Aaron Dessner: Yeah, I think it would've literally been on certain songs, like rather than track them on acoustic, I just would give her my Jazzmaster or my brother's Jaguar or something and just, you know, cause we play these old really beat up but beautiful guitars from the early sixties and they just sound amazing. And like certain songs like “Serpents” or “Warsaw,” or “All I Can,” like they just sounded for her to track them on electric, it just felt transformative as opposed to strumming an acoustic guitar where it kind of immediately places it in something. And that was really liberating. And I also like, I remember like wanting her also to improvise.
Sharon Van Etten: That definitely changed the way I wrote moving forward. And he definitely allowed me to lean into that angst that I feel like I really needed, I really needed to express. And I feel like as a woman, he gave me permission to do so. And I think other people connect with that too.
“Kevin’s”
Sharon Van Etten: When I wrote “Kevin's,” I was in that sublet. And it was interesting cause when I first wrote it, in the demo version, it was very stream of conscious and it was one of those things that I wrote in one sitting. And I have no, I almost have no idea where it came from. But you know, it was definitely talking about how someone that I knew at one time how they dealt with their temper, and it was conversations I was always afraid to have because of their temper. And I was always afraid to talk about it because, you know, I think when you're in those friendships or relationships where you feel like you're walking on eggshells with someone and you can't actually just talk to the real person. You're only talking to the emotional part. And I think I was trying to dissect that without realizing it. Most of the songs I write stream of consciously, I feel like the meaning comes forward later because I don't have the words for it myself until I, I look back and, and kind of do a self-therapy check on the lyrics that I didn't realize I was writing.
Aaron Dessner: So that one, yeah, it's like more, it's more baroque or something in a weird way. Like it's kind of this, Sharon has songs like that that are just very specific to this sort of way she was hearing it. And so we had to, that one is not, definitely not on a click. And I'm playing the drums on MPC pad and it just, it was a really magical recording, how we captured it. And the song is like held together by a thread. Kinda like if you would try to replay the bass or replay anything on that song, I don't know that it would work, really. So we just kind of were in the moment. And I say baroque, just in the sense of like, it feels more, it's odd somehow, or it's kinda like not conventional, even if, even though it's the form is conventional, it's just something about it. It feels, yeah, very Sharon.
Sharon Van Etten: My reference for Kevin's was Sinead O'Connor. I wanted it to have that urgency of “Nothing Compares to You,” while still having a bit of myself in there. But that was my reference early on, that marriage of acoustic with some bit of electronic element.
Aaron Dessner: It reminds me a lot of the garage, just the sound of it, just how it feels. And it honestly feels like that garage studio we had built after the success of Boxer, already at that point, I feel like there was like a real charm in that space. And like, I kind of think there's, there was magic there that there isn't, that I’ve never rediscovered in other places actually. So, but it was, yeah, like I can listen to it and hear like, “Oh, I know where we made that and how we made it,” and it's like, has a real feeling. So, but like having a beautiful place to be where you actually feel inspired to make something, I think that's really important.
“Leonard”
Sharon Van Etten: One of my sublets, I remember very specifically. I was reading Patti Smith's Just Kids, and I hadn't finished writing this one song yet, it was called “Leonard.” And I was feeling like all of these, this universal feeling that this was all supposed to be happening when you get, when you just get a feeling that it's kismet. And I was reading her book, Just Kids, and as I was reading it, I saw that she had met Robert Mapplethorpe about two blocks from where I was subletting. And in that one day I wrote, I finished lyrics to “Leonard” and “Kevin's” and I just was trying to conjure as much of her spirit as I could. And in that time, which New York was very new to her and she was very wide-eyed and full of wonder at the time. And I was trying to feel optimistic cause I was snowed in and it was New Year's of 2009, I guess, 2009 or 10. And I was just trying to get my life together. But with her backstory, knowing that she was always kind of hustling and always constantly figuring it out, I felt like those two songs were the most current of what was going on in my life at the time.
I remember when I was writing “Leonard” at the same place in Fort Green, it was late at night, it was during the blizzard, locked in this apartment, and I think it was around that New Year's where I was supposed to go home to visit my family in New Jersey. But I had actually seen Patti Smith at New Year's at the Bowery. And I came straight home, the blizzard hit like a day or two later and I was just reeling. And I just remember thinking, “Pissing in a River” was the first song I had ever heard by her that really moved me in this way. And I wanted to marry “Pissing in a River” with Leonard Cohen. And it was about one or two in the morning and it was another one of those songs I just wrote stream of consciously, like, “Can I write a Leonard Cohen song? Probably not. But I'm going to play the guitar like I'm playing the drums and just try to swim around it and see what happens.”
Aaron Dessner: I can't remember if she called it “Leonard” cause of like the Leonard Cohen aspect of the music and the production. But yeah, I remember embracing that sort of like “So Long, Marianne,” sort of, I don't know, Mazzy Star like world and this just soaring song that felt timeless and you know, where it was just a chance for her voice to soar in the ways that it can and yeah, the feel, I feel like the feel was like, I just remember the feel and just loving playing that song.
Sharon Van Etten: I was definitely dissecting a similar theme to, you know, kind of that feeling of “you make your bed, you lie in it.” You know, falling in love and then my life being on the road and trying to figure out how that's all gonna work, how I'm gonna find the right person that will understand the touring lifestyle, which is, it's not an easy one to fully understand. Even as I’m in my forties and happily married, I'm like, it's, I'm still figuring out that balance, you know? But it's funny, I am still tackling the same subjects.
If it weren't for Aaron, I never, I have never heard horn arrangements or string arrangements on songs before, and it just, not because I don't like them, just because it never occurred to me because of what I had access to and I wasn't surrounded by it and how I came up.
Aaron Dessner: My idea, I think, was to have these high sort of celestial Leonard Cohen-like strings, you know, that like hovering in the, in the up in the ether. And sort of a watercolor idea. And Rob Moose was this brilliant violinist who was becoming, who was starting to arrange strings at that time for many people, and was a friend who had played in Sufjan’s band with my brother. And so he just, when I had the idea to, to add high sort of Leonard Cohen-like strings to the song, he was the person that felt perfect. And at that time he, I think he came and played the parts in the studio, but a lot of times now he just plays them in his own studio and sends them in. So now I've probably made hundreds of songs where he's arranged strings on them, but that would've been one of the first.
Sharon Van Etten: Rob has worked with Aaron a lot. I think they still even work together. And he's quite a character, you know, he walks in the room, he knows what he is doing, as soon as he walks in the door, he's got this air of confidence that you can't overlook. And I feel like he already had an idea of what he wanted as soon as he heard it. But he came in one day to hear it and then he returned with a, like, he brought a few people after that to do the arrangement in the live environment. And I think that process is interesting because, you know, it does take a minute to kind of absorb not just the song itself, but the space that's there without just filling spaces, but supporting it in this other way. And he tried to honor my Leonard Cohen references and it's just a whole other way of thinking that I'm still, doesn't come naturally to me, but it's definitely was added to my palette as I learned how to write and express myself later.
“In Line”
Sharon Van Etten: “In Line” is like the dirge of all dirges. And I think I was trying to conjure a bit of Neil Young in that one.
Aaron Dessner: I think “In Line” was kind of the Crazy Horse song. You know, it is very simple and kind of slow moving. Yeah, I kind of, I've always associated it with Neil Young for some reason. It just reminds me of that kind of song.
Sharon Van Etten: Another joke with me and my friends is that I'm the queen of the dirge and, you know, you just kinda lean into it. But yeah, there's always the fear that I'm like, “Is this too slow or is it a good slow, or is it?” you know, it's a constant battle for me and my material (laughs). I think was Jenn Wasner on that one? Sorry, sometimes I never know what makes, like, what makes the credits or doesn't, but. Okay, cool. All right, great. So my memory isn't the worst.
Aaron Dessner: Well, Jenn and Julianna (Barwick) were friends of Sharon's and I knew, like, I knew Jenn from Wye Oak already, but that was more Sharon inviting in friends to sing. And it felt like a great idea to sort of have a community of voices to harmonize and, but yeah, kind of again, like it felt, just like that was the spirit of the time. That era also, I mean, it was partly we had learned it from Sufjan and the way he had been making records with, like, he would literally just be like, “Play anything you can hear,” you know? Or he would say it to friends and then he would, or he would end up, on his records, he would've had 30 people playing and then he would just, over a long period of time edit it down into whatever he was imagining. And there's so many people around Brooklyn at that time passing through or living there. So it was just great. Like we'd just have people, those were friends of hers and that I think was a wonderful thing that they could come sing.
Sharon Van Etten: Yeah, Julianna Barwick and I came up in New York around the same time and we were friends, we played shows together. We even did a run of shows together on tour. She jumped in the van a time or two and we're still friends to this day. She lives in LA now, but she just has like one of those really beautiful ethereal voices and I hate to use the word haunting cause it's used so often, but her range is just, it's epic and she's also just a really wonderful person to be around. So I knew that having her presence in the studio would only help me feel comfortable and and free to express myself, but also knowing that she would feel the freedom and and safety as well.
Aaron Dessner: That's just how it was back then. We all played on each other's records and a million records like that I played on that I probably wasn't credited for, didn't care. You know, you just kind of did it and everybody was helping each other out and yeah, so like I doubt anyone was paid to play on these records, you know what I mean? It was kinda like, I mean it happens even still to this day. Like sometimes Justin (Vernon) or someone will be like, like one time he asked me, he was like, “Did I ever get paid to play on anyone's record?” I was like, “Yeah, you did” (laughs). He's like, he didn't even know, but it was, you know, this kind of, how it was. This is not how the major label world works at all, but kind of indie world is more like this.
Sharon Van Etten: It was like the first time in a collaborative environment that I could just see that people are there for you and you can use what you will. And there's that understanding of if you're coming into something like that, that you know, given the permission you can utilize what they give you however you want to. And it was really grounding to witness that.
Aaron Dessner: It was one of the ones, it was super important to Sharon, one of her favorites, and I remember like really encouraging her to play electric guitar and also to kind of improvise on the song so you can hear her doing that in there. And I like that it was this like slacker Crazy Horse Sharon song.
Sharon Van Etten: But yeah, I think it was like a matter of like, I was learning how to, when to play to a click when I didn't need to, cause you know, you kind of, I'm not used to playing to a click, especially during that time I was very much like, “Oh no, it's all the, it's the vibe of the live space if we're gonna be playing together. And it also depends on the other players and what they're comfortable with. And you can kind of feel it breathing a bit. And I wanted it to be more of a meditation with still kind of like this meandering guitar, until the final catharsis of, you know, just that feeling of waiting and finally being able to, to let go.
Aaron Dessner: Sharon's mind, it became clear very quickly that like she would sing one part, but then you would realize there were eight other parts, vocal parts in her mind simultaneously that were equally important or there was no lead vocal. A lot of times it was like this, her way of, you know, arranging was like in writing. It was all sort of this harmonic interwoven quilt of voices. And I think that applies to the music too. So I think that started to emerge, but obviously you can hear it much more later in her musical journey, which as she got more, you know, experienced as a producer and started to experiment where she kind of became this like savant of just shape shifting and trying things. And she's just made so many classic recordings.
Sharon Van Etten: You know, I grew up in the choir, so I think over the years I've been learning how to ease up on harmonies because I think sometimes the wall of sound of vocals can just be too much. But you know, if you're a singer you can harmonize up to wazoo. And so I think learning when it's necessary, learning when a double vocal actually can act as a chorus. And yes, learning when those moments of intimacy are better off with a single vocal, but also letting other singers in to do something that you're not anticipating to help you look at the song in a different way. And I think this album was a big bridge of that for me cause you know, my first record, I only really made with one other person. My second record, I brought just a few of my friends in and they played what I asked them to. But this was my first step in giving people a bit more freedom to put themselves into it. And I think that helped me look at my own vocals differently as well.
“All I Can”
Sharon Van Etten: When I first wrote “All I Can,” I remember I was on my first tour of Japan and I was on a solo tour and I was in a hotel and I could not sleep, and it was another one of those songs that I wrote in one sitting, and it was just on. My phone, like the voice memo app in my phone, and you know, just the yearning of being away from home and also being a little bit out of your element in Japan. I felt like I was the only one up in the world on a whole entire other planet, and reflecting on this very bizarre life that I was leading.
The demo was just guitar and vocal from my memory, and I sent it to Aaron, I think from Japan and this one was definitely Bryan on the drums because this was one of the first songs I think he played on in the synchronicity of the recording of the record. But he just was so sensitive when he came in and when the drums finally come in to the song that, you know, I hate to use the word pocket, but the snare sound that he got and the feel that he had. And when he decided to come in, just startled, startled me in like a really, like in a, as an awakening of where this song could go. Cause there wasn't a whole lot going on until Bryan added his drums to it. And, you know, made me play and perform differently than I would've obviously if it was just me and the guitar.
Aaron Dessner: “All I Can,” I just remember like it was, that was the one that's sort of the most influenced maybe by The National. It felt like I could, when she first played it for me, like I just felt it was like this torch song, kind of like this long, slow building epic song. And so that was the one where like Bryan Devendorf, who's the great drummer, one of the great drummers I think of our generation and he plays in The National, so I'm biased, but I just think he's truly, you know, no one can play like him. And he kinda came and played in the garage and my brother plays guitar and it just was like this, we kinda did, that's where I hear like the two, like The National and Sharon colliding.
And it did become this kind of like epic song, you know, that has this huge arc. It only has a few chords, but the thing about Sharon songs is they always reset in unusual ways. So it's like, you think you know how it goes, but actually you can easily get lost if you don't pay attention. So she's not like symmetrical in that sense. She's idiosyncratic.
Sharon Van Etten: Playing it and singing and it's definitely a challenge. And, it’s a circular song where it's the same chords over and over again, but they turn on themselves so that in every part of the song it starts on a different chord so it feels different. But I think there's only three chords. But the way the melody develops is just really fun as a singer. So when it kind of grows and, you know, I love a slow build and I like challenging myself as a singer. I mean, usually after, when I finish making a record and I look back at the range that I did, I'm like, “Why did I do this to myself?” Cause I will never be able to do this at every single show. But just melodically, it was, it's like an acrobatic where when you're singing it. But it's also goes from very quiet to pretty intense by the end. Soit's a good workout, but it's also, “All I Can” is a very healing song to sing.
“We Are Fine”
Sharon Van Etten: Well, “We are Fine,” I wrote this on the ukulele, which I don't think I've ever written another song on a ukulele that's been released, if I can say that confidently. But you know, when you're traveling and you have a smaller instrument, it's easier to write when you're on the road and in small quarters. And I may have written that one while traveling, but yeah, I had never written on a ukulele before. But you have different kind of formations. It's similar to a guitar, you know, but it's, anytime you pick up a different instrument, you play it a little bit differently, you sing a little bit differently, you hear arrangements a little bit differently, and so it's, I think it's good practice.
I feel like I almost started writing that as a joke to myself in learning how to deal with panic attacks and learning how to slow the thoughts down so the spiral doesn't turn into asthmatic breathing (laughs). I'm not the best in crowds, but especially when I moved to New York, I was moving to the belly of the beast, but I knew that if I wanted to pursue music seriously, that I wasn't going to do it out of the basement of my parents' house in New Jersey. And I had been seeing a therapist for about a year, you know, helping find ways to, you know, I didn't want to take medicine, I wanted to have tools to help prepare me to be able to see the light of day. Before I moved to New York, I was in a pretty abusive relationship and needed a lot of help before I decided to move on from my parents' house. So, for about a year or so, I lived with my parents to get back on my feet. And the therapist that I saw gave me all these tools and breathing exercises and mindfulness and it taught me how to be able to walk into a room and gave me the confidence to do open mics before I even went to New York. So bringing that to New York, it was, you know, in a way that song is an homage to her as well, because she would joke that my, at the time I used to smoke, I don't anymore. But at the time she's like, “Well, you could just disguise your smoking as like, that's your tool if you need an excuse, but you can also just go outside if you can't handle yourself.” And so like that turned into my mechanism to step away, take a moment and come back in. Now I can just breathe (laughs). But so yeah, that was a big part of that song was, commiserating with people that do have social anxiety. I still have problems with crowds, which I've, I've chosen a hell of a profession to work on that. But, I think, you know, you focus on one thing, you make eye contact, you realize it's, the room is usually full of love. And that usually gets me out of it pretty quickly.
Aaron Dessner: “We are Fine” is the song where Zach (Condon) from Beirut sings and that was kind of like this beautiful folk song. That then took on this kind of like muddy, slightly swampy feeling and then in Zach's beautiful voice elevates it with Sharon and just felt that was, I think one of those moments where we're like, “Oh gosh, we're really making a record.” You know, “We have all these special songs and they're starting to really like, take on all this dimensionality.”
Sharon Van Etten: When I finished writing that song, I remember, you know, Zach Condon from Beirut and I were fairly close. I used to work at Ba Da Bing Records with Ben Goldberg, and Beirut was a band that was growing pretty rapidly when I started working there. And he and his bandmates were always really sweet to me. I actually met Ben Lanz who plays trombone with Beirut, who also plays with The National. And I met Ben through Beirut and working at Ba Da Bing. So everything kind of came full circle in, in the making of this record and reconnecting with people that I met from my work and being able to bring them in creatively. But I know that Zach deals with anxiety and we've bonded on that over the years. And when I asked him if he'd want to sing on this song, he was so gracious in saying yes. And I've admired his voice and his band and his persona on stage and just who he is that I was honored that he would even consider it with how busy he had been. But so that kind of grew from that friendship there.
“Magic Chords”
Aaron Dessner: “Magic Chords” was a cool story. There was an old church organ, like an old church, like a Wurlitzer from the seventies. The kind that you can like press play on a beat and then like it has different settings, sort of like you would imagine in some like seventies mega church or something (laughs). Just like this organ that was made for people to accompany or provide music that maybe couldn't really fully play the instrument. And so it has like presets and a little button called “magic chords” where you could then, almost like an Omnichord, just press buttons that have different chord shapes. So like G Major, A minor, C major, you know, and like move around like that. And I left the studio at some point and came back and Sharon had like pressed play on a, some sort of waltz or song or that beat that you hear in there. And then she was just like pressing these buttons and playing a chord progression. And I just was like, “That has to be song.”
Sharon Van Etten: I remember that Aaron left me alone in the studio on the day that I wrote “Magic Chords.” That one I actually wrote in his studio. He had a beautiful organ in the back of the studio that I had never, I didn't know how it worked or anything, but he is like, “Here are some beats here.” It's basically like an organ version of an Omnichord, which is why the Omnichord came into our live shows later. But there was a setting on it called “Magic Chord” that I, I just hit and there was a beat happening and you know, he came back and he heard the beat and he heard the chord progression as I was in the middle of writing it. And he was just like, “Yes, this, keep going.”
Aaron Dessner: So we recorded it and that was one of the arguments actually, that we did after she didn't want to put that song on the record. Cause I don't know, I think maybe cause of the genesis of it felt like less, I don't know, somehow in her view it was less important or something. But like, I just, I just was like, “No, there's weird, weird spontaneous magic in that and I think we need to put it on.” So we, again, that was one where we played chess about that, but that, she ultimately came to love.
Sharon Van Etten: And he just tracked as I was writing it and, you know, and we encouraged Zach (Condon) to sing on it later, but I didn't really know what I was doing as I was doing it. But as my husband says, “I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just doing it.” And the song ended up developing from there. But that was with Aaron trusting me in the studio alone (laughs). .
“Ask”
Sharon Van Etten: I remember the writing of this one. There's a story that goes along with that. This guy that I dated briefly, who's still a friend, but I remember he was walking me home and after we had dinner one night and I was making this record and so I, no, it wasn't this record, but he had dropped me off at my front door and. I just wanted to go home and write and make music. And he wanted to keep hanging out. And I could already tell he was a little tipsy, but he's like, “No, I really want to come in.” I was like, “No, I really just, I really want to make music.” And he put his finger in my face and he told me, he said, “You blew it.” And I always remember that about my friend who put his finger in my face and said, “you blew it,” in like such a Jersey way that it was kind of sweet in a way. And so I ended up writing that song shortly after. I think it may have even been that night.
Well, hopefully it sounds like I'm talking to a friend. You know, we are just like, you're talking a friend off a ledge or something. But yeah, just reflecting on, you know, how I interact with people (laughs). But anyway, one of those come home needing to write, feeling feelings.
Aaron Dessner: I just remember this sort of like beautiful folk song. It's more like a folk song, I think, than some of the other songs, which are more kind of these weird hybrids, or they're more leaning in a more alternative direction. But it was beautiful and sort of flowery.
Sharon Van Etten: “Ask” is another one of those (Bryan) Devendorf entrances that you can't really replicate. But his musicality in the drums transported a lot of the record because I don't have that sensitivity. I've never thought as drums as melodic until I got to be in a room with him and watch him perform.
Aaron Dessner: That one, you can hear that it's not on a click, actually. And I remember Bryan being like having a hard time playing to it, but also like his way of playing fills. That are sort of like sometimes rolling on top of each other or like not starting where you think they're going to, you know, and just having this like weird linear thing that was really cool and exciting.
Sharon Van Etten: He's just incredible to watch play. Like it's like watching somebody paint or something, but he's yeah, he's so inventive and, yeah, I mean, standing sidestage during those National tours that I got to go on were definitely life changing.
“I’m Wrong”
Sharon Van Etten: There's songs that blend together for me, like “Ask,” “I'm Wrong,” cause I wrote them all around the same period. So I think the arc of them and how I wrote them solo and how I brought them in and fleshed them out, like are all kind of similar. So it's funny, I have all these different versions of that song in my head, but that was one that Aaron wanted to turn on its head because it sounded a lot like the original version does sound so much like. There's “Tell Me,” there's “I'm Wrong,” there's “Ask,” there's, yeah, there's about three to five songs that I wrote in the same period that sound very similar, but the original demo is very much sounds like “Ask,” and I remember kind of being stunned that Aaron just said, “Let's just take it all out.”
Aaron Dessner: When she played me the initial part of the elements of the song, I think I remember just feeling like, “Oh, this could literally just be a drone, most of it, and your voice, it would be so beautiful.”
Sharon Van Etten: I think I may have even, was unsure about it for a little while, but I think as it started unfolding into this arrangement, I saw more of the beauty in it and, and the value of having more space on the record.
Aaron Dessner: Yeah, I love that one too. I think that one, that's one of my favorite recordings, and I think it was built in this drone world that was just so enveloping and kind of like this deep, like I think at that time we talked about John Cale a lot and we talked about, I think sometimes reducing songs just to a core tone and letting it be, yeah, just like getting lost in creating a, like a more visceral watercolor of drones. And you hear on the next song “Joke or Lie,” like that was like a watercolor of like strings and just sort of this more beautiful type of drone or backdrop to the song, whereas “I'm Wrong,” it's like kind of like there's more feedback and kind of like subversive. Everything feels like it might just fall apart or something.
Sharon Van Etten: Bryce came in and did an arrangement for it and “I'm Wrong,” turned into the song that we ended up closing our sets with because even though it's very much a meditation, it's also very, it turns into something very cathartic and chaotic and dissonant and very different from what I was playing at the time.
Aaron Dessner: I mean, it wasn't even really, it would've just been improvised for sure. So like, nobody's writing any notes on any of this. It's just like, you know, kind of improvised, I think. But yeah, I think the arc of it was just such an amazing moment of like the recording and then the performance. Just really everything was working and there's like such beautiful overtones and in such kind of depth. It’s really moving.
“Joke or Lie”
Sharon Van Etten: I think I leaned on Aaron a lot for the sequencing of this record cause I was still fairly new to that game since my first record was very minimal and the second one was very short. So, you know, it's always a, a bit of whack-a-mole when you're moving songs around and you want it to feel like a journey and you want to space out the, you know, “What is the intro song? Is the third song really the single? Iis the ending really closure or do you want a cliffhanger?” I mean, the psychology of a sequence is, you know, was something I was just learning about at that time. But I think “Warsaw” felt like an opener to me because it comes right in. I didn't want to start with a slow build and I think “Serpents” was third, so I guess that was the single, but I don't, you know, “What are the laws of sequences?” I'm still not sure today if that's even how people listen to them. But I still work on sequencing as someone's listening to an album or, you know, A-side/B-side. But I think “Joke or Lie” probably was always an ending for me cause it did feel like that record wanted a bit of peace to end with. It's still an ellipsis, I guess, but it gives the listener a bit of a reprieve by the end to have a bit of a slowdown and a space, without the tension so much.
Aaron Dessner: In a way, “I'm Wrong” is like the end and “Joke or Lie” is like it’s the coda or something, or the goodbye. And it's very, feels like it's going somewhere else or she's reflecting on the record, and it has this beautiful almost jazz, this to the harmonic world of that song, “ Joke or Lie.”
Sharon Van Etten: During the recording of “Joke or Lie,” that is when I got to see Clarice (Jensen) play. She played multiple parts for that song. And I think Rob Moose was playing with Clarice on that one, if I'm not mistaken. But she played multiple parts. So she played on top of herself as she was overdubbing, and much to Rob's direction, but she is also very intuitive and, she's an elegant player and she's just, it's really, I remember just watching somebody play cello was just a beautiful thing. Anyway, I was kind of mesmerized by just her form and ability to just stack the way she did on the fly. “Joke or Lie” is a meditation for me and it's really about slowing down and hearing each other and just being in that moment, even if it's hard, even if it's stressful. And like being able to be present in that moment. And not necessarily needing to talk to understand what the other person is going through. You know, just being able to focus on each other's breathing, to make eye contact, to be able to be present in a room together without having to say anything sometimes is better.
I remember Aaron being supportive and open to the idea of going to Philadelphia to work on mixes with Brian (McTear). And you know, it's very surreal as the songs are coming together and you're hearing them in their finished forum and being able to say, “Okay, we're done with this.” Cause it's a period of time in your life that you spent so much time on, and I know how much Aaron gave up, you know, how much time he put into making this and the time that would've been off from the road to like, be with his amazing partner Stina. But I mean, looking back on that time, it's pretty incredible that we were able to make anything with everything that was going on in our lives. Between him touring and making another record and me having a different schedule and being here and there and everywhere at once, but still being kind of a freshman in the studio, that was definitely a huge jumping off point for me in learning how to talk to a band, have the confidence to play with a band, and it felt like a real accomplishment, not just for me, but just for him and what he was going through and what he gave up to do it. And getting to hear it in a studio beyond Aaron's studio, in Philadelphia, where I had just come out of making the previous record. I just felt like my family kept growing.
Aaron Dessner: And then actually the record was mixed there, by Jon Lowe, who was the engineer at Miner Street and who from that day, basically he ended up being sort of my main studio collaborator for 15 years after that. And so it was kind of that beautiful moment, you know, to meet him. And he became someone that, he moved up to Hudson and worked with me every day for, you know, more than a decade.
Sharon Van Etten: You know, I think Aaron embodies that as a musician and collaborator in that he always brings his family in on projects. And I feel like our family's married during the making of this record and have only helped us build our circle. As I said earlier, when I first reached out to Aaron, it was to possibly play on a song or two on Epic. So to listen to an album that we made together, I didn't have crazy high expectations going into it because I didn't know how far I could take my demos. Cause a lot of the songs would just be guitar and vocal and my shitty programming (laughs) to go into people's ears, so it blew my mind to hear what they became. And, you know, I just felt this comradery with Aaron and everybody that held my hand as part of the process. My mind was blown.
Aaron Dessner: We were so proud of it when it was done and that she showed me the artwork and there, you know, there's a picture on the inside of us sitting in front of the garage in Brooklyn, and was just so proud of it. It reminded me of when The National would finish records, what it felt like. Where it's like, you're like, “Oh, we did it. We did it.” And for a lot, cause a lot of times you just don't know that you're gonna do anything good. You know, no matter how many things you've done that you love, like when you start again, you kind of feel like you'd never done anything at all. So I just remember feeling like really proud of it and really proud of her.
Sharon Van Etten: And I also had this overwhelming feeling of, “Oh shit, okay, now I'm gonna have to tour this and I'm gonna need a band in order to tour this.” So, it was beautiful and overwhelming and, you know, finishing Tramp and touring that record was a major turning point for me because I was learning how to have a band, I was learning how to tour on a different level.
Aaron Dessner: Somewhere in the middle of making the record, or towards the end, she signed to Jagjaguar. And like things were happening, you know, there was, she could feel this like wave building. And for me it became clear very early that she was making like a transformative record. I don't know why, but it just felt like you could feel that it was gonna be important to her fans and it was gonna connect, you know, it was connecting to anyone who would hear it and it was connecting to us. And it was a very exciting moment where you just feel like, and I don't know that music has still like that. Like it doesn't, sometimes people make them incredible records now and they just don't connect or find an audience, you know? But I feel like back then it was still, it was like less music. It was before Spotify was really a thing, and it was still feeling like if you make your best record and people are going to listen to it, you know, and they're going to go buy it at the record shops and you're going to like go on tour and the songs are going to take shape and take on new dimensions when people sing them back at you. And it was just, still had all that magic. And I'm not saying that it doesn't, that doesn't happen today, but I feel like it's more elusive and there's so many other factors at play, you know, in terms of imaging, all that stuff, and the social media, parasocial narratives and all that. And I think this record really existed in an earlier time.
Sharon Van Etten: I mean, it was really overwhelming. You know, I was, I remember I would read reviews for a while and you know, I mean most of them were good, some of them were not, but that's how it goes. But the bad ones would always make me spiral. But, you know, being a publicist, I was so used to like trying to log everyone that ever wrote about the record because if I ever had to do my own promo again, I would have everybody that ever liked my record documented. But I think I finally was able to take that hat off cause I was like, “Screw that. I don't need to read my reviews.” And I think that was something I had to learn about because I think it's a constant reminder of, you know, I made the record I wanted to make, I'm proud of what I made. And the fact that like one person can make me second guess how I feel about it. That was something I had to learn about. And then, I mean, the shows were fun. I mean, I think being young and on the road and just not having a family yet, you know, I just, I wanted to say yes to everything and I loved traveling and I loved my band. And some of my favorite shows I've ever played were on that record.
Aaron Dessner: She came on tour with us a ton and I would also go play with her a lot. You know, I played with her on television. We kind of did a lot to promote it and it felt just amazing to see it grow in that way. And then everything she's done since has just been even greater, you know? So I think she's just kept on growing. Yeah, just a lot of gratitude towards Sharon for taking the chance with me. And then I never imagined that I would get to do all these things, you know, never. Like I think if you would've told me then that it would ultimately become what I've done now, and like I get to spend my days sort of making whatever I want with all these really talented people. And I've learned so much and I've built studios upstate in New York and also in France, and just gotten to kind of like live and support my family with music, not just through The National and touring. Cause that was like, you know, that's the world, that world is really hard, really brutal at times to be out there. Like it's not conducive to a healthy life really. So this, but this is, you know, so that's, I'm really grateful to Sharon helping me discover that I had that ability, you know, and that I could help create like a safe space for artists to make records.
Sharon Van Etten: When I look back at the making of Tramp, I just have so much gratitude for all of my friends and Aaron Dessner and his circle of friends that came in to help make this record happen. These songs used to be little demos, living in my laptop and voice memos on my phone, and you helped, you helped me find myself, deeper as an artist that I didn't know I could be at that time. Thank you.
Outro:
Dan Nordheim: Visit lifeoftherecord.com for more information about Sharon Van Etten. You’ll also find a full transcript of this episode and a link to purchase Tramp. Instrumental music is the song “My Own Way” by Emily Hines. Thanks for listening.
Credits:
"Warsaw"
"Give Out"
"Serpents"
"Kevin's"
"Leonard"
"In Line"
"All I Can"
"We Are Fine"
"Magic Chords"
"Ask"
"I'm Wrong"
"Joke or a Lie"
© & ℗ 2012 Jagjaguwar
All songs written by Sharon Van Etten
Produced by Aaron Brooking Dessner
Recorded by Aaron in his Garage (Ditmas Park, Brooklyn), October 2010 - July 2011
Additional recording by Peter Mavrogeorgis (Ditmas Park, Brooklyn),
Peter Katis at Tarquin Studios (Bridgport, CT)
and Brian McTear and Jon Low at Miner Street (Philadelphia, PA)
Songs 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 Mixed by Brian McTear and Jon Low at Miner Street (Philadelphia, PA)
Songs 1, 4, 11, 12 Mixed by Pater Katis at Tarquin Studios (Bridgeport, CT) with Greg Giorgio
Mastered by Joe Lambert at JLM Studios, Brooklny
Orchestration on 5 by Rob Moose, on 7, 8 by Bryce Dessner, and on 12 by Aaron and Bryce Dessner
Sharon Van Etten - Vocals (1–12), Guitar (1–7, 10-12), Harmonium (5,10), Ukulele (8), Organ (9)
Matt Barrick - Drums (1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9)
Thomas Bartlett - Keys (3, 12), Rhodes (6), Piano (8, 10)
Julianna Barwick - Vocals (4, 11)
Logan Coale - Double Bass (5)
Zach Condon - Vocals (8, 9)
Aaron Dessner - Guitar (1, 2, 5, 7, 10, 12), Bass (1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 10, 11), Keys (1, 4, 7-9, 11, 12), Drums (2, 10), Slide Guitar (3), Electric Guitar (4, 8), Drum Machine (4), Piano (5, 7, 9), Shaker (5), Guitar Feedback (11), Glockenspiel (11), Percussion (11), Orchestration (12)
Bryce Dessner - Ebo Guitar (3, 11), Bowed Guitar (7), Orchestration (7, 8, 12)
Bryan Devendorf - Drums (7, 10)
Clarice Jensen - Cello (8, 12)
Doug Keith - Bass (6), Guitar (7)
Benjamin Lanz - Trombone (7, 11)
Ben Lord - Drums (11)
Rob Moose - Violin (5, 8, 12), Orchestration (5), Mandolin (5), Viola (8)
Jenn Wasner - Vocals (3, 6)
Episode Credits:
Intro/Outro Music:
“My Own Way” by Emily Hines, from the album, These Days
Episode produced, edited and mixed by Dan Nordheim
Additional mixing and mastering by Jeremy Whitwam