the making of no need to argue by the cranberries - featuring fergal lawler and stephen street

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Intro: 

Dan Nordheim: The Cranberries formed in Limerick, Ireland in 1989 by Noel Hogan, Mike Hogan, Fergal Lawler and Niall Quinn. After releasing an EP under the name The Cranberry Saw Us, their lead singer Quinn left the band. The three of them continued playing instrumentally, but later Quinn recommended Dolores O’Riordan as a potential lead singer. O’Riordan wrote lyrics and added vocals to songs on their demo tape and after hearing the song that became “Linger,” the band immediately hired her. On the strength of their demo, they signed a contract with Island Records and released their debut album, Everybody Else Is Doing It, So Why Can’t We? in 1993. The album failed to make waves at first, but when MTV started playing the video for “Linger,” they suddenly found success in the U.S. After reuniting with producer Stephen Street, they began working on their second album. No Need to Argue was eventually released in the fall of 1994. In this episode, for the 30th anniversary, Fergal Lawler and Stephen Street reflect on how the album came together. This is the making of No Need to Argue.

Fergal Lawler: Hi, my name is Fergal Lawler, I'm the Cranberries drummer, and we're discussing No Need to Argue. 30 years later, No Need to Argue is still definitely my favorite Cranberries album as a whole. Although, (laughs) yeah, the first one as well. It's hard to say, really. But yeah, I do love No Need to Argue. Something special about it, I think, because the fact that, you know, we had worked so hard and toured so much beforehand. And then when we got into the studio to record it, it was just a really enjoyable experience. And we were having fun, working hard, but we were still having fun at the same time and having a laugh because there's lots of like photos and video footage of us in the studio at that time and just laughing mostly, you know, which is great. I don't think the band felt much pressure about doing a second record because we had those songs already written, you know, like when we were on tour for the first album and we had played them in front of an audience and that was good reaction. We had done the demos with Steve and he thought they were great. So I think maybe because we were a bit naive, we didn't feel that pressure of the second album. I think Steve was a bit more because he's been around the block and seen many bands kind of do a first album and then mess up on the second album. So I think he was very focused to make sure it was a really good album. And yeah, we just worked really hard and we're very focused on trying to make it the best it could be, you know? 

Stephen Street: Hi there, I'm Stephen Street, record producer, and we're here today discussing the making of the second Cranberries album, No Need to Argue. I was first approached by Island Records, I think it must have been about 1991, and Island Records had just signed the band and I was asked to come in and have a listen to their demos. And they expressed their interest to work with me. So I met Denny Cordell, who was the guy that actually had signed them to Island Records. And yeah, I just remember hearing the demos that they'd done, I think on that first demo tape, I think “Dreams” was on it, a few others that finally made it on the first album. And I just remember liking them very much. I thought, you know, there was something there. I could appreciate that they were coming from that kind of genre of music that obviously I was very involved in with The Smiths and so on. At the time, there was a band that was doing very well called the Sundays that were signed to Rough Trade that were kind of beautiful kind of melodies with a female voice floating over some very nice neat guitar work and I could see the Cranberries were very much in that kind of field. And so it was something that really interested me. So yeah, I said to Denny, “Absolutely, please, you know, consider me kind of very interested to take up this offer and let's see what we can do.” So after that initial meeting that I had with Island, you know, when I was first approached to work with them, I said, “Can I see the band play live?” And he said, “Yeah, they're coming over to London in a couple of weeks. They're playing at the Marquee.” So I went to see them play live and I've got to say, you know, it wasn't that great. I mean, Dolores was so nervous. She kind of sang sideways to the audience. You know, she wouldn't even kind of connect with the audience at all. Nothing. You know, I thought, “This is going to be hard (laughs), this is not going to…” because they were really nervous, you know, you could tell, you could really tell. But I think we managed to kind of, we managed to gel pretty damn well, I think on the first session. And then there was again, a feeling, I really did love their songs. I thought the songs were really cool. So an initial session was booked in Dublin and we went in there just to do like a test session, two or three songs just to kind of feel it out, see if it would work or not. And in that first session, I think we did record “Dreams.” And then I think it did work out. So then he said to me, “Right, crack on and do the rest of the album.” So that was, you know, how I first met them and was making, Everybody Else Is Doing It, Why Can't We? 

Fergal Lawler: We had initially started the album with a local guy in Limerick, and it was in absolute shambles. It was terrible like, and you know, I think we were like two or three weeks in and we had one song done and just said, “This guy can't handle it. He can't handle the pressure. We have to get someone professional to do this album.” How we met Stephen Street, we were all big Smiths fans, and we were trying to think of someone to produce the album, and we kind of looked at all the records we liked and kind of said, “Who produced that, who produced this? And then, we said we'd try and contact Stephen Street, so we got on to our A&R guy, Denny Cordell, who worked at Island at the time. And we said, “We'd like Stephen to produce the album.” So they contacted him and we were on a small tour at the time in the UK, and when we got back, we had a week, maybe five days or a week booked in Dublin in Windmill Lane. So we went in there and did maybe three songs and yeah, that was like a trial kind of for Steve to get to know us and for us to get to know him. And it worked out really well. It worked really well together. He was just really easygoing, easy to get along with, but very on the ball in the studio, you know, he was really together and really efficient at getting the best out of everybody. So that was, yeah, the start of it really was that first week. We felt a little bit green, but not too bad because we had been through that horrendous experience in Limerick, you know, trying to get it done and kind of playing the same song over and over again for like three days, three or four days. So yeah, I think we just were delighted that Stephen was so efficient and worked so well and it kind of gave a new freshness to us and being in the studio was exciting again and we were, you know, really looking forward to doing the album with Steve.  When that first album when Everybody Else initially came out, what happened was, the album was finished so the record company sent out all the kind of pre-release copies to the press. And then there was a delay in releasing the album. I think it was supposed to come out in October or something like that. It didn't come out to the following March. When the album finally came out, I think in their minds, it was like, “Oh, that's old news. That album was like five or six months ago. You know, we're onto the next thing now.” So we were touring around the UK, we had quite a good following in the UK. And then we went off to Europe where nobody knew us. We were opening up for the Hothouse Flowers and not a single person knew us like, you know, we were 20, 19, 20, and we're just on an adventure on a tour bus around Europe. The weather was good, we were enjoying ourselves, but we knew something needed to be done because no one over there knew us. 

Stephen Street: I mean, it was interesting because the Cranberries had been signed to Island, but they've been signed by Denny who actually worked in Island, America. So the Island UK office, they didn't really, I just don't feel they were really kind of very supportive and really into it as much to say as Denny was at that time anyway. So we were very much working in a little bit of a kind of, a kind of vacuum really, as far as, you know, getting the UK side of the label fully behind it, I think. And then “Dreams” was released as a single. And the idea was to release the album like within, you know, kind of a month or so of “Dreams” being released. And that was the autumn. Anyway, the thing was, “Dreams” came out, it wasn't a hit, the album had been sent out to be reviewed in all the British press at the time, but then Island pulled the release, so it kind of, nothing really happened, but it ended up being reviewed, but then the record wasn't in the shops, it was a bit of a mess really. Then they released “Linger,” and again that didn't hit, and then they just put the album out in the UK, and it was kind of like a, you know, a very big non event really. It was very strange. It just didn't seem to kind of capture any attention at all. So obviously the band and I were devastated because we thought we'd made a good record, you know, and there were some people mentioning at the label, “Perhaps the mixes aren't right.” And they tried to get a couple of remixes done and so on. But it was, you know, there was nothing wrong with the record. We know that now in retrospect, but at the time there was like, you know, “What do we do now?” And the band, I think were just sent off on tour. So really the kind of, it was like, “Well, that's done and dusted. You know, the record has come out. It's had its time. It's dead in the water,” you know? So it was really kind of disappointing. Anyway, fortunately, Denny didn't give up and he went back to America and he was managing to get a little bit of action, I think on college radio over there. And there was a show that was on MTV at the time, I think called Alternative Nation, which was, you know, I mean, this is when MTV was a proper music channel. And I think there was one show every week called Alternative Nation where they actually had a bit more of the alternative, you know, genre of music being played. And someone there took a liking to the video for “Linger.” And so it started getting some spins and some plays and all of a sudden, you know, it was obvious that something was happening. So then he's on the phone to the Cranberries, who at this time were playing in the back in Europe, just supporting the Hothouse Flowers and said, “You've got to get over here, come to America, there's something happening.” And that's what happened. They came back. And as we know now, “Linger” was a big hit. And the album was re-released and, you know, went top five everywhere, you know, so it was kind of nice. It was, you know, to see this record that everyone had really kind of washed their hands of and given up on suddenly kind of like take off and become a huge hit. 

Fergal Lawler: We got a call saying the album has taken off in the U.S. and they said, you know, they're playing “Linger” and “Dreams” off the air over here on college radio. You need to come over and do a tour. So a tour was scheduled and off we went to Denver, Colorado, and did a stint opening up for The The.  And kind of on the days off, that was in theaters and on the days off, we'd play in clubs, our own headline shows in clubs. So we just kind of started building up a following then. 

Stephen Street: We kind of felt kind of vindicated definitely. And I think we took that vindication that we felt between myself and the band. And, you know, we knew now then what we were doing was right and was good. And, and so when Island said, “Well, we want you to do the second album, No Need to Argue, I think we felt real strength of like, “Okay, well, we know what we're doing. We feel really truly vindicated by what's happened here.” And by this point, the band had been playing loads of gigs, both on their own touring with Suede in America, that they were beginning to become much better musicians as well. So I think we went into that second album with a lot more confidence and a bit like, “We're going to show you because now you doubted us last time. Don't doubt us ever again.”

Fergal Lawler: Once the first album came out, we went off on tour and toured for, Jesus, nearly a year and a half, I'd say nonstop. And that was something that Denny Cordell said to us before we ever recorded anything. Denny came to see us after he had heard our initial demo and he came to see us play. We played like five or six songs and he said, “Yeah, you know, you definitely have something there, but you need to get tighter as a unit. You need to go on tour.” So after we got signed, Island sent us off on a tour supporting a band called Moose around the UK. So basically playing every night for two weeks. And it did help an awful lot. You know, because we used to just rehearse two or three days a week. And, it's not enough, you need to be, and the fact that you're playing in front of an audience as well, you get the adrenaline and you play, you're a lot more focused I think than just in a rehearsal room, it's more casual, you're, there's no pressure like, so. Touring is the best thing you can do as a band to get tighter as a unit, you know, to play as a unit and, and to kind of almost anticipate what's coming next. 

Stephen Street: They were definitely very green and very naive when I first worked with them, but there was a sudden kind of whoosh of growth and progression that took place between those two, the first two albums. And it was down to the fact that they were working really, really hard as touring musicians. I was keen to try and get Noel to, you know, develop more as a guitar player. And he took that on really well, that challenge, you know, he really did. Cause obviously I was very lucky. I was used to working with the likes of Johnny Marr at that time. Also, I was beginning to work with Blur, so I was working with Graham Coxon. So I was really kind of like working with some great guitar players. And I think Noel knew that, and I think he was ready to kind of rise to the challenge a bit as well. And he's completely different to those players, but he had his thing and he developed it and he got better at it, you know, And, you know, Ferg and Mikey had their kind of particular way of working as a rhythm section. It's quite a thing actually, because there is something, I mean, what Mikey might do as a bass player isn't particularly that difficult, but he's got a tonality to his playing that really works and it leaves the space for, you know, the other elements to come through. And Ferg, as I said, you know, again, especially after the touring that he did in that first year, he was really becoming quite a powerhouse of a drummer, really, you know, it was really good. So the band had put on a little bit of musical muscle, Dolores had strengthened, I think, as a singer as well. And  I just think there was a lot of confidence flowing between us. 

Fergal Lawler: When we were in the middle of our first tour for Everybody Else, we were writing all the time at soundchecks. Dolores or Noel would come in with chords and a guitar or Dolores might have a piano part and start playing at soundcheck and we'd all kind of listen and jam along and kind of work over the next few days at soundchecks, we'd work on that song. The new idea or whatever and it became a new song and after maybe a week or two, we would put that song into the set and play it live just to see what kind of reaction it got from the audience. So we did that with a lot of the songs for No Need to Argue. So by the time we were kind of halfway through the tour, it might have been October actually. It was October because I remember it was near Halloween and we had some time off in New York. And we said, “Steve, look, we have a load of song ideas for the next album. Would you be free around this time?” You know, we have like five days off in New York. “Do you want to come over and do some demos?” So we went into the Magic Shop and did “Everything I Said,” if I'm not mistaken, was one of them. “Yeat’s Grave,” I think, was another one. I'm not sure the third one, but those two definitely. I think there was three, maybe even more. And there were supposed to be demos, but they turned out so well. I think we ended up using the drums, bass, and rhythm guitar maybe on the actual album because, you know, they turned out really well and we didn't need to re-record them. Cause we were in the middle of a tour, I think we were really playing well and playing tight together. 

Stephen Street: Well, that was a really good thing, actually, because that was something that really did help kickstart the session. The idea was I went over to America, they were touring a lot in America at the time, so I had to go to them to kind of have the opportunity to pop into the studio for a long weekend, as it were, to do some demos. And it just struck me in the Magic Shop, it was just a great studio. It was so well equipped and it just sounded great in there. So I was keen to not just treat it as just demos. It's trying to spend a little bit more time on it and get it right because these are sounding really good. And we came out of there and I was like, “Okay, great, we’ll keep those tapes, you know, and bring them back to the UK.” And when we do the album, we can just do a little bit more work on these and they're going to be great. So that was the thing that kind of kickstarted it. But then the obvious main session then was going into a residential studio in the UK called The Manor. Which was a well established, well established residential studio. And that's where we did the majority, you know, two thirds of the album. 

Fergal Lawler: Yeah, it was something different because we were, you know, out in the countryside in Oxford beside a lake and there was a forest kind of nearby. So it was just, yeah, away from everything and just focusing on the music and, you know, getting the bones of the album done. We did a lot of recording out there, maybe  four weeks. I think three or four weeks. And we did a lot. I remember “Zombie” was one of the tracks we did there. And I think after that, we took a little break and went off skiing. Steve was mad into skiing and he said, “We're going to do a skiing holiday,” which maybe wasn't a good idea in the middle of an album because you know, Dolores had an accident and wrecked her cruciate ligament. So we kinda, that kinda put a bit of a pause button on, we did as much as we could without her. And then we kind of had to. pause and wait for Dolores to get better before finishing the album. That was when we were back in London now in Townhouse. That was where the album was going to finish the second half of No Need to Argue. 

“Ode to My Family” 

Fergal Lawler: I actually remember distinctly it was in the Orpheum Theatre in Boston and we were doing a sound check and I remember Noel started playing the chords and we started kind of jamming and I remember that “do do do do” was kind of the first thing that came out of Dolores, that was the first idea that popped into her head and she was like, “Oh, that sounds catchy. That works. You know, it really works well.” So we kept practicing in soundchecks and then, like I said earlier, threw it into the set after a while. It just resonated with people. It just really hooks you from the first, the opening “do, do, do, do.” 

Stephen Street: Yeah “Ode to My Family” was obviously kind of penciled in as a potential single quite early on because he had such a catchy melody. You know, it was one of those ones, a bit like how “Linger” was on the first album. It was obvious that there was a particular catchiness to it and it was going to be, you know, potentially a single. But like “Linger,” the simplicity of it, rhythm wise, is difficult to get it completely right because like “Linger,” for instance, it's got this kind of shuffly drum thing going all the way through it and where the bass drum was hitting, I think at one time it was quite square, it was kind of like (sings bass drum part) “dum, dum, dum.” Whereas what we wanted to, what we ended up doing with the bass drum on “Linger” was it had a kind of swing. (sings rhythm) “Dunk, dunk, dunk,  dunk, dunk, dunk,” and a push and it took a while to kind of get that right because if it's too slow, it really drags. And if it's too fast, it really drags. Because of that constant snare thing, it feels like it's tripping over itself. So we took a long time to get that right. And I think I remember the same thing happening with “Ode to My Family” to get it how we wanted, it did take a little bit of work, just a bit of finessing. It sounds like it's a really simple thing to put together, but actually it took a little bit more work, but it was worth it in the end. It came together really well. 

Fergal Lawler: We could all relate to that because I think the fact that we had been on tour for a while at that stage when that song was written and we're maybe missing our families a bit. You know, because it was our first major tour and we were away for three months, kind of home for a couple of weeks and gone for three months again. So yeah, I think we could definitely relate to that. 

Stephen Street: I mean, you know, the kind of family that Dolores comes from, you know, a family means a lot. It's not like some people just can't wait to get rid of their kind of family and move on, you know, but that's not the case with Dolores. I mean, she was still very, very attached to her family and as I said, you know, with that emotion and then the emotion of seeing what she was doing with the boys suddenly going from being very kind of subliminal and not that kind of well known on the world stage suddenly going so big, it must have been mind blowing for her. 

Fergal Lawler: The whole fame thing, none of us liked that, because we're from a small town in Limerick, you know, and Dolores got it, obviously being the lead singer, the front person of the band, she got the most attention, she found it really difficult to handle and kind of yeah, I mean, it's part and parcel of being a lead singer in a band, you know, ask anyone, what's your favorite band, they'll always be able to name the lead singer, maybe not the rest of the people, but always the lead singer they'll know the name of, you know. We tried to support her as much as we could, but there's only so much you can do, you know, you can't, yeah, you can't really take that pressure away. It's just something you kind of have to learn to live with. And over time, it got a bit easier, I think, because she could come back to Ireland and not get too much attention, and she lived in Canada, in the countryside, where not many people kind of went there. It was a quiet, quietly populated area, and, you know, she could escape there. And I think when you're on tour, you expect a bit of the attention because, you know, you're playing in that local city that night, and there's posters around of the band. So you kind of expect, and you're ready for it more. But I think it's, it's when you're at home and you want to get away from all that is when it becomes difficult. 

“I Can’t Be With You” 

Stephen Street: And the other one that we had demoed up in advance was “I Can't Be With You.” We'd done that in a little, tiny little publishing studio that Island Records had. It was across the way from the main studio HQ in Hammersmith. And it was a tiny little basement kind of studio. And I'm really not sure why we did that one in advance. I think it was perhaps at the time they were thinking it could be released as a single in between the albums, you know, as a one off thing. But in the end we did that and it was decided, no, keep it back and kind of keep it for, for the album proper. I think that was kind of, they had shades of their appreciation for The Cure and New Order, you know, that high bass line, you know, playing (sings bass line) “doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo,” you know, that kind of, it was like, it was our little nod to that kind of thing, you know, the kind of indie pop thing that was quite big in the eighties and so on. And that was a bit more of a struggle to mix because we, as I said, we recorded it in a tiny little kind of box publishing room and it didn't have the same kind of drum sound as the rest of the album. So I had to take, it took a bit more time to mix, but it was a good track and it worked out well. 

Fergal Lawler: “I Can't We With You,” it was just one of those rockier songs. And that's, as I remember, we started playing at a soundcheck and it came together really quickly. I remember Dolores come in and kind of started belting out these chords and the guitar. And she was like, “Oh, this is a nice upbeat rocker kind of vibe.” And so we started just jamming with that for a while and it came together quickly after like a few days and then she said, “Come on, we throw it in the set tonight,” and we're like, “Oh, is it ready? Is it ready?” And it was like, you know, give it a go and then I think we kept it in the set since then it was always in the set every single night because it was just such a great live song cause it in the chorus, especially just lifts up into this big, powerful,  pounding, kind of like a driving song. It's one of those songs, like a driving song, you know, where you're kind of like, picture yourself in the car, looking out the window, driving along. And that's one of those songs. 

Stephen Street: I think she was full of contradictory emotions. I think there was sadness about obviously splitting up with the boyfriend that she had at the time on the first album. Although, you know, I don't think that was the happiest of relationships to be honest with you. So perhaps it was also a relief, a relief to that release from him. But at the same time, there was a huge change going on in her life because suddenly she is being kind of thrust out front as being an upfront rock star. And as I mentioned to you earlier on, when I first saw her play in London, before we did the first album, she was so nervous, she could hardly face the audience. So this wasn't something that came natural to her, you know, she had to really work at it.  And my, boy, did she work on it? And boy, did she run with it? You know, she did suddenly becomes this kind of, you know, big, powerful, like Shirley Manson, you know, powerful front woman, full of confidence and things. And so I think she was going through a real growth at that time. And no wonder, she ended up kind of getting, you know, later on kind of having problems with certain things because there was so much being chucked at her and so much for her to take on. But this album, it really is like a, it's a real peak of emotions because as I say, it's not only her saying goodbye to one boyfriend and getting another one, you know, with Don, but it's also seeing the band that she's with to being with for a few years, going from kind of just bubbling along at the bottom somewhere and then suddenly peaking like out of nowhere and then, you know, seeing how far, how big they can go, it must have been quite mind blowing for them, you know, it must have been really, really mind blowing and particularly for her, because being the frontperson, that's the thing that the media want to focus on. And so this was a real period of intense emotions, I'm sure, for her, because there was so much happening in her life. 

“Twenty One”

Stephen Street: And then we get on to “Twenty One,” which I think have come, I'm not totally sure, but I think it was one of the Magic Shop tracks. But again, Dolores’s vocal on that, I just think it’s absolutely superb. And I just thought the way it was expressing this kind of fear and awe of everything that was going on to this simple kind of 21 year-old girl that was suddenly kind of like, yeah, it's all happening to her.

Fergal Lawler: Gorgeous song. I think that might've been one of the ones from the Magic Shop as well. Obviously, that was written because she had just turned 21. And I don't know, maybe it's just a reflection on being that age and maybe seeming a little bit older because we had done so much touring and seen so many places.  But I absolutely love that song.

Stephen Street: And I think the way she expressed, you know, her sentiments in that, and her mood, I thought was just, it was just fantastic. And I just thought those “twenty one” backing vocals that kind of punctuate the song. I think it's really cool. I really, really love that song. It's one of my favorites. 

Fergal Lawler: Still to this day, it sounds amazing. I haven't heard it in quite a while, but yeah, it was one of those ones that I always loved and just for some reason just really resonated with me. I think it's the way her voice sounds so fragile and almost like it's about to break. And it just gets me every time. It's amazing. 

“Zombie”

Fergal Lawler: One day Dolores came in and said, “Okay, I have an idea for a new song.” And she said, “Have you any distortion pedals? You know, it needs to be angry. It needs to be loud.” And because the place was so small, everyone was always saying, “Oh Jesus, turn it down. You know, turn the amps down. I can't hear myself. Try not to hit the drums so hard.” But on this day she was there, “Okay, hit the drums, turn the amps up. We need power and anger.” 

She played it, we started jamming along and then got the feel for it. And after it was almost instantaneous, we kind of had that vibe of what it should be. And then we went off on tour shortly after that. Yeah the tour for the first album and, you know, we started working on that at soundcheck on “Zombie” and then yeah, put it into the set list and it kind of had stayed in the set list since then, because that first night we played it, nobody knew the song and by the second chorus, they were all chanting, chanting along. It was just surreal. We were kind of going, “Okay, this song works.”

Stephen Street: It's a grunge song. You know, it was like, well, the band had been touring. They're suddenly kind of, got into loving Smashing Pumpkins and Soundgarden grunge thing, which was really big at the time in America. And so when the guys said, “Oh, we want to do this rock kind of, it's really kind of rocky grungy song.” I thought, “It's great, let’s have a bit of fun, you know, let's just go for it.” It was no pressure about making it a single whatsoever. This was like, for me, an outlier on the album. It was just like, “Hey, let's have some fun.” It's a bit like how I did “Song 2” with Blur later on on the Blur record. It was, there was no pressure about, “This has to be a single.” None of that at all. No input from the label or management about it whatsoever. It was like the band wanted to let off a bit of steam, you know, Noel’s bought some new guitar pedals and a guitar with a heavier pickup on it, and he wants to rock out a bit. “Okay, let's do it.” You know, and we just had fun. We just lashed into it, you know, stacked up the guitars. And so we had that kind of stereo wide. You know, heavy grungy chorus and everything and just had fun with it. And I think that's the reason why it works so well. It's because we weren't kind of getting paranoid about, “We've got to make it a hit single.” We just did what we wanted to do with it. And then sure enough, it's become the biggest hit record they've ever made. 

Fergal Lawler: It was called “In Your Head” initially. I remember a set list written down, “In Your Head.” And it stayed as that until we recorded it. Dolores decided to change the name to “Zombie” because she just preferred that name. And yeah, the decision to release it as a single was our decision and it was kind of met with a bit of trepidation of the record company kind of saying, “Oh, it's a bit controversial. I don't know. It's a bit heavy. It's, you know, maybe not a good idea.” Our argument was, “Look, we've been playing it for over six months live and, you know, the reaction is incredible from the audience every night. I think it's a great idea to release it as a single.” And they got behind us then once, you know, we made our argument and fair enough.

Stephen Street: The thing is, there is a formula. There was a recipe there, which has been done by the Smashing Pumpkins and Nirvana, you know, and the Pixies. You know, it's the quiet verse, heavy chorus thing. It  isn't (laughs) it's not rocket science, but it works, you know. 

Fergal Lawler: Yeah, it's very dynamic. The whole song is very dynamic. And I think that that's a part of the Cranberries sound is that kind of loud quiet thing and leaving space for the vocals and for whatever there might be a guitar line or a keyboard line, you know, that that comes in every now and again. And it's kind of backing off and leaving space for that. And I think that's an important part of it. 

We were embracing the grunge thing because we all loved Nirvana. We all loved Pearl Jam and, you know, listened to them a lot when we were touring, you know, you'd have, there's nothing else to do on a long drive, only listen to music or, you know, watch a movie. But we'd listen to music a lot on the, in vans and on tour buses and stuff. So those bands were definitely an influence on us, and yeah, we weren't concerned about the change in sound because it still sounds like the Cranberries, it's just louder. Because I think we had been on tour a lot and we're used to that more powerful sound, I think, you know, because when playing live, everything is a bit louder because the adrenaline is up. You're hitting harder and you're playing harder on your guitar or whatever. And you know, there are speakers, so it's harder to hear yourself so you're kind of, yeah, it's a different mentality than being in the studio because you have headphones on and you can hear everything crystal clear. It's like a CD, but live you're struggling to hear things some nights. And yeah, I think it gives an edge to a performance. So I think that's what we were looking for, was that kind of more, yeah, lively, powerful sound. 

Stephen Street: As I said, because we weren't precious about it. We weren't worried about it being a single. You know, it was just like, this is the band letting down their hair a bit, rocking out a bit. And it means they can put it in their set. Because I think they felt like after they were touring, when they first started they had so many slow songs they wanted to put a few more up-tempo songs into the set, you know, that's why “Ridiculous Thoughts” was also there I think as well and you know they needed some stuff that was a bit more up-tempo. So you know that's what “Zombie” did and it did more than that as I said it's become like it's become a monster really, I mean it's the biggest selling track they've ever released.

Fergal Lawler: “Zombie” was such a powerful live song, once it went into the set, it was always there and sometimes it might go on a bit longer or you know, depending on the night and depending on what Dolores was feeling, what she would say, but I always, that song more than anyone, I always kind of gave that extra bit of power to, because yeah, it's a very emotional song. And the subject matter about the murder of two innocent boys is still something that kind of gives me a lump in my throat, you know, when I think about it. Yeah, especially having kids yourself, it makes it even more, yeah more emotional to listen to it. 

Sometimes “Zombie” is misunderstood, but again, you know, people take different things from different songs and, you know, once the song is out in the open, it's fair game for anyone to  decide what they like or don't like about the song. Yeah, it was written 30 years ago and the information is there if you want to go and look about what this song was originally about. But as time progressed, it became more a song for peace, you know, and a song about peace. And  hopefully that day will come, but  it doesn't seem like it at the moment with all that's going on around the world. So, yeah, I think, yeah, as time progressed, Dolores would kind of say that this song is a song of peace, you know, when we were playing it live, you know, it's an anthem of peace rather than violence.

Stephen Street: (sings guitar solo melody) “Duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh.” Yeah, I mean, it's blindingly simple and I'm sure some guitarists would be kind of like shaking their heads at it going, you know, “Well, there's no technique there whatsoever.” But, you know, for me, it's a bit like the Buzzcocks, you know, that one finger guitar solo, you know, on the early punk singles, you know, it's kind of, I like that. It's like, it's Dolores playing the guitar. “It's her part. That's what she wants to play on it. Let her do it.” You know, there was no kind of doubt for me that we had to change it and kind of get her to play it in a more technical way it’s how she played guitar, you know. And I do love the bit at the end where it kind of drops down, you know, and what I love about that bit at the end, actually, is that when it drops down to the bassline, you can feel the tempo change, it slows down initially, and then it starts picking up again. And I love that because I mean, nowadays, a lot of people have everything gridded out, and it's got to be the same tempo all the way through, whereas we just used a click, I think, just for the beginning in the first chorus. And once we got past there, we just took the click out so the band could, you know, go with the music and I love that and you can really hear it that bit, especially towards the end. It really does change in tempo, but it felt right. So we went with it, you know. 

Fergal Lawler: When we play it live, we normally would finish with “Zombie,” finish the main part of the set, then take a break for four or five minutes, usually to go to the bathroom. And while we were off stage, the lads would set up the bongos and stuff. And so then we'd walk back on after playing “Zombie” to this complete and utter come down to acoustic version of a song, which is “Empty” usually. And it was nice to kind of bring it from that full on in your face rock song to something that was so intimate. 

“Empty”

Stephen Street: Yeah, I mean, for me, you know, “Empty,” it could have been on the first album, you know, it's that lovely. I mean, I love, you know, for me, I love that mellow side of the Cranberries, you know, that kind of plaintive, delicate, spacious, you know, leave space for the reverb and the vocals and things and certain notes like piano notes. I mean, I love that. I mean, that's what I'd try to get them back into later on when I came back to work with them later. Cause by that time they'd changed into quite a kind of, you know, hard hitting stadium band as it were. And this is for me, the Cranberries, this is something they just do so well, you know, and I just love the space in that track, the way it just floats, you know, in the ether and again, superb vocal. And everyone just did the right bits on it, you know, no one overplays on it. It's just really, really delicate, which is how it should be for a song called “Empty.” 

Fergal Lawler: “Empty,” I don't remember much, but I remember never trying to play drums, I don't think, on it. I kind of remember listening to it and we had done a lot of acoustic stuff when we were starting off in record stores and on radio stations and that's where the lads would have acoustic guitars. And I just bring like a pair of bongos or congas, bongos usually, or something like that and tambourine. And yeah, when I heard initially the chords being played, I kind of said, “OK, this might work as an acoustic song,” you know, and I just throw out an idea on the bongos or whatever. And I was like, “Oh yeah, that works. Yeah, so we'll stick with that rather than trying to do a drum thing on it.” 

Dolores always wrote string parts on her keyboard. We had some strings on the first album, guys that Stephen had worked with. And it was great because they'd just be a quartet, but they'd layer it and do a few passes. So it made it bigger, but yeah, it was great to have real strings, because the keyboard was great for the idea, but when you have the real strings, it does make a difference. Real players playing is, you know, the slight differences in timing between four players, it just makes it a lot more emotional than a synth. 

Stephen Street: Well, there's a string player that I use a lot, a guy called John Metcalfe. He works with the Duke String Quartet. I first met John when he was part of The Durutti Column. There's a band called The Durutti Column that I produced around about the same time. And John was my go-to guy. I got him in to do the strings on the Morrissey stuff that I'd done. And so what would happen would be, there'll be sometimes little lines that the lawyers would write on a keyboard as a kind of sample kind of idea, like a simple, you know, like a keyboard player would play, like, you know, a line, but then I'll give that to John and then John would then make more of it and turn it into a bit more of a score with part for viola, part for cello, part for the violins. And it was just a really good, you could give them a few pointers as to what you wanted and you would come back with something really, really cool. So there's, yeah, there's quite a lot of strings actually dotted throughout this record. I didn't realize until listening to it again recently, there's quite a bit there. But it was also very tasteful, I think, and it added the right kind of element that we needed. And yeah, he did a fine job on it. 

Fergal Lawler: That's a beautiful song. And I still love “Empty” today. I love listening to it. And if it came on the radio or hear it on a, you know, sometimes TV shows and stuff will use certain songs. It's like, “Oh, gorgeous song. Really nice to hear it.” I kind of, yeah, I feel like I'm removed, you know, when I hear a song on the radio, I kind of don't think it's me. It's like, “Oh, that's that band I like” (laughs). 

“Everything I Said” 

Stephen Street: I just remember it's kind of, it just seemed to fall out of the air, that one. It's just got that kind of classic fifties (sings guitar part) “down, down, down, down, down, down,” kind of arpeggio guitar part, you know. Again, the vocal is superb on it. It really is, it's just delightful and like “Empty,” it's just got that lovely space in it. Again, the tone of the kit, everything. Again, cause I said, the Magic Shop was a great room to record in. There's some lovely microphones, a really nice desk. So everything acoustically that we recorded there just sounded really rich and warm to me when I got back to the UK and listen to it. So I just remember it seemed to be something that really just came together pretty simply.

Fergal Lawler: “Everything I Said,” it's still to this day, one of my favorite Cranberries songs ever, and has been. I don't know why, it's just, I think Dolores's voice and the way it almost breaks and it's so intimate. It's so on the edge and there's a yearning in there and it's just, yeah, it's just an absolutely magical song, I love it. I absolutely love it. The space, there's kind of a reverb around everything almost. It's dreamy. It's almost dreamlike. 

Stephen Street: I mean, obviously with all these songs, you've got the initial part that Noel would play as he was playing in the room with the guys, you know, when it was written. But then, we'd always be looking, Noel and I would always be looking to overdub certain bits, like putting the capo and the guitar on a different part of the neck. So it makes him play in a different way. Different chord shapes and so on to achieve the same chord or, you know, harmonization to that chord. But so we were always doing things and trying slide guitar and all these little elements, but they will be dotted throughout the record. Like that was us, like having a little bit of constructive fun, you know, after we got the main elements down. 

Fergal Lawler: I was always of the mind that the song comes first, you know, we were always like that, all four of us. And it was, it was something that that Stephen spoke about on the first album as well, you know, that the song as an entity is the most important thing. And then your playing should enhance that, you know, and we were all into that idea. You know, none of us were into like mad guitar solos or drum solos or anything like that. We, you know, it was about the song itself and the emotion that it brought to us, but also brought to people once it was released. 

“The Icicle Melts” 

Stephen Street: “The Icicle Melts” starts off with some really nice, simple harmonics. And then Ferg and Mikey kind of kick in. It's a classic Cranberries kind of construction really on this one. But what I like about it is that when it gets into the chorus is you've got this kind of angular kind of stabbing guitar that cuts across it and it just picks up a little bit and you get a little bit of edge to it. So it, you know, whereas “Twenty One” and “Empty” had stayed quite soft and gentle throughout the whole track, this one. It kind of just picks up a little bit and has a little bit of kind of drive on the choruses and again, some fine playing from, I thought Ferg on this one, with those little kind of snare rolls and things that he did. I think it's the archetypal Cranberries vibe that one on this, you know, it's then beginning to kind of like, just kind of get a little bit more muscular on the choruses of some of their songs and just pushing things a little bit more. 

Fergal Lawler: Yeah, another emotional one, because the subject matter again. I don't want to get into the lyrics and discuss that, but I'm sure it's available on the internet, the story behind it, but yeah, it's a heartbreaking, heartbreaking story. And that was one of those songs that always got me anytime we played it live, it was just, because you can hear the pain in Dolores voice, Epecially when she sings, “The child, child.” And yeah, oh it's just, yeah it is a beautiful song, but it's a very hard one to, yeah, to think about the lyrics, you know, and to discuss. These songs were written before Dolores even had kids, so she had this empathy for kids in trouble, I think, you know, for troubled kids. All the time, you know, it was just something she had naturally in her. 

“Disappointment” 

Fergal Lawler: “Disappointment.” Oh, I love that as well. It's another one that reminds me of “Everything I Said” is that kind of dreamy, dreamy kind of air to it. And yeah, Dolores’s vocal is beautiful in it as well. Absolutely beautiful. And yeah, I just love everything in it. You know, the guitar, the bass line, the drums. The whole vibe of it is just, it's just a really special song. 

Stephen Street: “Disappointment,” I mean, again, it's just, the melody is just beautiful. Dolores’s performance is, it's just stunning really on this one, I think, and the band again. As you know, I think that everything we tried on putting this record together, everyone just seemed to fall naturally into the right mode and it wasn't like pulling teeth or, you know, kind of getting blood out of the stone. It seemed to just, it seemed to flow. There was a real confidence there that what they were doing was right, you know? 

Fergal Lawler: That's the thing about Stephen Street. He always managed to capture that. The sound of the space, if you know what I mean, it was that X factor, as they call it, you know, that certain thing that was there when the four of us played in a room together and we were coming up with ideas, someone would play some chords and we'd listen and we'd kind of start jamming and then the song would start moving around and become this new thing and grow into something else. And it was that magical feeling that was in the air because we were all excited about creating this song from what started off as a few chords or a few lyrics or a keyboard line and it builds and builds becomes this other entity and yeah it's almost a tangible energy that's in the room and the four of us would play together and Steve, I don't know how he did it, but he managed to capture that on record, which is something that nobody else could do. I think only him, he really managed to capture that certain thing that was there between us. 

When we'd record the drums and bass, they were the first things to be recorded to tape. We'd all play together in a room and everything would be recorded, but he, Steve was always focusing mainly at that stage, the early stage, on capturing a good drum take and bass take  together. And then if there was a few little bits that needed to be fixed up, Mike would go in and just kind of fix them up. But there rarely was because we were very tight together as a unit and just, you know, had been touring so much that we were, usually got it down in like three or four takes and it was, “Yep, that's the one. Keep that.” And then, you do the, everything else, like guitars and vocals and keyboards and stuff like that would all come afterwards. Once you had the solid foundation down, then everything would build on that. 

Stephen Street: Again, Mike and Ferg just came up with the right kind of rhythm part that just seems to support it superbly. It's the notes, especially with the bass lines as well with Mikey, it's the notes you don't play are as important as the notes that you do play. Sometimes you've got to leave space so when something does come in on the beat or off beat, whatever, it pops through, you know? What I love about this particular track is the play out at the end. Dolores is doing that kind of low disappointment vocal and there's that (sings) “ay, ay, ay, ay.” Kind of a high backing vocal part and I think some electric piano as well. It was quite rare to have electric piano on any of the Cranberries songs, but I think Dolores played a little bit and it just felt really nice. It's got a beautiful mood as it just, it doesn't fade out, I don't think, I think it just plays. A nice long cool down section at the end, which I thought was particularly really, really tasteful. I've been listening to the album again recently, knowing I was going to be doing this kind of, you know, interview with you. And I just forgot about that ending on that song. And when I heard it, I thought, “Wow, that's really nice. That's some really nice playing there.” So, yeah, I was very proud of that one. 

Fergal Lawler: Steve had worked with Johnny Marr, obviously, in the Smiths. And Steve is a great guitar player himself and bass player. And I think Steve really helped Noel develop a lot over the albums because I think Noel worshipped Johnny Marr when he was younger, like, and, you know, to work with someone like Steve was just, you know, a dream come true for all of us. But yeah, for Noel as well, it definitely helped an awful lot with the guitar. 

Stephen Street: I'm sure that's the main reason why they wanted to work with me is because of my work with the Smiths and Morrissey's solo career, you know, so I can totally understand that. But yeah there was just some nice things he was learning. And you know, as I said, we were always keen to try, if we were to overdub something, it would always be a case, “Do it with a different guitar and a different amp.” It'd be very rare we'd do an overdub with the same guitar, you know, or the same pedals or whatever. But normally, I always remember saying, “Okay, well, we've done that guitar. That's the Fender with the Vox. Let's now use a Marshall with a Gibson.” At that time, a Gibson Les Paul. And he had a Telecaster, which I'd really kind of got him into, because that's what I was working with a lot with Graham (Coxon). And Noel, he's got this, he had this kind of classic chorus pedal. I can't remember the actual make of it. We had it for the first album too. And that's what I call the Noel sound. You know, him playing a Fender guitar into an amp, not too driven, just driven a little bit. It was just a classic sound. 

“Ridiculous Thoughts” 

Fergal Lawler: Yeah, “Ridiculous Thoughts,” that was another one that really worked out great live. It sounds different, the recorded version is, it's kind of a bit slower, more kind of grooves laid back a bit more. But when it's live, I think because we're so full of adrenaline and we would always put it in towards the end of the set when everyone was firing on all cylinders and it just was really a powerful, very powerful live song and always got an incredible reaction with it and we just kind of go for it with that song. It just, yeah it was one of our more powerful kind of up-tempo groovy songs. But yeah, for some reason it sounds different live than it did in the studio, but it's a great song. I really enjoy playing it live. It's one of my favorite ones to play live. 

Stephen Street: This was the band again, wanting to kind of like put a few more up tempo songs into their set. And what I loved about this one was the interplay between the guitars that we kind of worked out with Noel on this. You've got this kind of low (sings guitar riff) “do do do do do do do do,” and then you've got these kind of stabs going against it and so on, and just kind of like a fast rhythm guitar part. So that took a bit more arranging and kind of, you know, like what we're going to do with it, what we're going to do with it sound-wise. But once we kind of got that sorted, I think it came together pretty quickly. 

The way I work when I'm doing vocals with those lead singers, I would do like a comp sheet. So I basically write out the lyrics and write some columns next to it. And then someone like Dolores, you know, you do four or five takes and they'll be ticking that the lines where they're particularly good, question mark, you know, if they're not, a cross if it's not right at all. And so I would, by the time I'm actually doing the vocal with the lead singer, I'm pretty much into what the lyrics are. You know, I mean, it's a big part of it for me. I like to get a guide vocal on, even if it's just a guide vocal very early on, on the performance before I do any more overdubs on it, because you've got to judge where the space is going to be. And how you play off that vocal line. So it's a very important part, yeah. But yeah, I think “Ridiculous Thoughts,” I think it's great. I mean, I think it's one of the better lyrics, actually. I think it's a good lyric on this one. 

Fergal Lawler: Not quite sure what that's about. You know, I'd never ask. No, I'd never kind of say, “What's that, what's that song about?” (laughs). It's kind of like, it's like reading someone's diary, you know. If she wants to tell you about it, she would tell us. But otherwise I wouldn't go prying, it wasn't fair. What would normally happen is we'd kind of lay down our parts during the daytime, because she liked to sing at night, because her voice had warmed up and she was more awake. So during the day we'd do our bits, we'd have dinner, and then Dolores would come in in the evening time, so we'd stay for like a half an hour and just chat and let her do her warming up and that, and then we'd go and just let her work with Steve on her own because she preferred that more intimate vibe and more comfortable for Steve as well, obviously, because you're just speaking one to one with a vocalist. That's kind of the way he worked with most vocalists. And it's understandable, it's a great way to work. 

Stephen Street: For the first album, the boyfriend that she had at the time, there was a desire, I think from Dolores for that other guy to be around when she was doing her vocals. And I went, “No, I'm not having that because, you know, I'm producing this session. I'm not going to have someone over my shoulder second guessing what you're doing.” So I made it quite clear that I didn't want him in the studio at all, much to the relief of the boys in the band because they didn't want him in the studio either. So that guy was only there literally for doing that kind of Gaelic wailing that's at the beginning and at the end of “Dreams.” The rest of the time, I kept him out of the studio. Yeah, I mean, it was obvious that at this point, Dolores had started to date Don (Burton) and he was around, he wasn't around so much at the beginning of the record, you know, when we were doing the first half of the session, it was only when we had, we took a break halfway through and then that's, well, we went on a ski trip together. We had a bit of a holiday together and that's when Dolores tore her ACL and her knee, which threw everything up in the air. But when we came back to London, that's when we did all the vocals on the second half that was at Townhouse Studios, which is a studio in Shepherd's Bush. And the band was staying in a flat just above the studio, but Dolores was staying in a hotel with Don. And it was obvious that, you know, she was very happy with this new guy in her life. You know, she seemed to be pretty settled, you know, she seemed to be very happy and looking forward to a new chapter. 

“Dreaming My Dreams” 

Fergal Lawler: I think it was like she was putting one section of her life behind her and was excited about moving on to a new chapter, getting married, “Dreaming My Dreams,” it really is a love song. It's like, it's almost like a Patsy Cline song or something like that. And cause Dolores would have been into Patsy Cline and those kind of artists from her dad playing those records when she was younger, you know, and yes, I think there's maybe a little bit of a country influence, like old fashioned country in that with the kind of waltz vibe. Yeah, it's a beautiful song. It really is. It’s almost like a lullaby. 

Stephen Street: I think that song, “Dreaming My Dreams,” I mean, it's a lovely waltz, isn't it? It's just a, you know, waltz time track. It goes back to that kind of Gaelic Irish thing. I think, you know, that kind of lovely kind of lilting waltz time music. And again, there’s a delicacy to her vocal. I think she always kind of manages to touch a nerve, you know, with her performance. And I think that really came over on this one. 

Fergal Lawler: Yeah, she had the string line on her keyboard and she'd work with John (Metcalf) when he came in then and kind of discuss what she was thinking and they'd work together and he might suggest something that, you know, maybe we could do something like this and she’d go, “Oh yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.” And then, you know, something new would be created. 

Stephen Street: And again, a great string part from John added on this. I think he did a solo viola throughout that accompanying Dolores while she's singing the verses. And yeah, again, like many of the others on this record, it seems to kind of fall out of the ether really.

Fergal Lawler: It was gorgeous. It was another beautiful one to play live because whether it was a club or a theater or an auditorium or whatever it was, the whole place would just go quiet and listen to it. And they'd sing along and you could see the whole crowd swaying from side to side like that. Yes, it is that kind of, that lullaby kind of waltz vibe to it. It's a lovely song. 

“Yeat’s Grave” 

Fergal Lawler: That song was written after we had a break. We did the The The tour and kind of did our own tour, so that was about three months in the States. So we had maybe two or three weeks off in between. And before we went back for the second half of that tour. And Dolores and her friend went up to Yeats Country, which is north of Connemara. It's over the border in Mayo, Sligo, I think, I'm not quite sure. But she went up there camping with her friend and spent a while up there and was inspired by the whole thing. And that's where that song came from. And then once we went back and started the second half of the tour, we started working on that song at soundcheck. And then that's why it was recorded in the Magic Shop then, because it was one of the newer ones we were working on. 

Stephen Street: This has got a little bit of toughness to it as well. I think those tracks, you know, that we recorded at Magic Shop because they were actually mid-tour, they were really on it and they were kind of, you know, they were keen to kind of get a little bit of energy into some of their tracks. And so, I love the way that Dolores has this spoken vocal part on this one. I always remember when I was mixing it, it was really hard because she's got the spoken vocal and a sung part at the same time. And I realized that one of the best things I could do to make it work would be to pan the vocals like left and right, because if I just left them in the middle, they just got in the way of each other. So I remember that one kind of like being a little bit more difficult to mix because obviously you want to hear everything, but it was, you know, you've got to get that spoken vocal come through clearly, but without overshadowing the melody and everything that's coming through. A good performance from everyone on that, I think. And yeah, it's a very strong track. They're all great tracks. I mean, as I said, I hadn't listened to the album for a long, long time until recently. And I was pleasantly, very pleasantly surprised when I listened to it. I kind of thought we were definitely firing on all cylinders when we did this one. 

“Daffodil Lament” 

Fergal Lawler: “Daffodil Lament,” I remember we recorded that in the Manor and we had been playing it live. We have been playing it live a lot. And I remember the four of us were going, “How in God's name are we going to record this?” Because of all the sections and different timing and everything. And we said, “Look, we've been playing it live, just do what we've been doing live and we'll see, you know, how we get on.” And we did, you know, we kind of did a few takes and kind of went, “Oh, this is actually working.” We're kind of looking at each other going, “Yeah, great. Excellent.” So we kept going and kind of, I think we got it down in four or five takes. The whole thing was done. It was like, “Oh, Jesus Christ, this is brilliant!” You know, we were dreading it because of all the different timings and everything thinking, you know, “Okay, this section is going to have to be on and that section is going to have to be on, I'm going to try and have to stitch them together or something.” But no, we actually just played the whole thing through because we'd been playing it live, thank God, for months and yeah, by the time I came to record it was actually way easier than we thought. 

Stephen Street: Yeah, I mean this is them getting a bit prog rock really. I mean it's got like different movements in it, you know, you've got that kind of very ambient start with all the kind of sound. We had fun doing that, you know, again with guitar pedals and reverb and so on. Then the track gets going. Now that took a bit of time, getting that right, so that the movement between the different parts all came together. Yeah I think we might have been doing some editing on the multitracks then to kind of get it all kind of feel right. So it was definitely one of the tracks on the record that was more complicated putting together, but again, I just thought the emotions in it, the lightness and the darkness in one song, you know, I kind of, I think it encapsulates that really well. 

Fergal Lawler: Yeah, I don't think we were worried about the whole trying to experiment thing. I think it's just something that naturally happens. There was no kind of preconceived, “We're going to try and do something proggy now.” You know, it's just something that happened, I think, and yeah, it was a natural evolution rather than something that we were planning. 

Stephen Street: And then you got that kind of real kind of dark kind of bit in the middle where it kind of, you know, it sounds really ominous and kind of dark and then you get this, I always think it's a bit like a springtime coming now when the drums come back in again and it picks up and it goes turns into this lovely lilting, (sings) “And the daffodils look lovely today.” You know, it's a very fey lyric but it just seems to work, you know? 

Fergal Lawler: It's a great song. Yeah, I love that. The fact that it kind of goes dark and bright and up and down and yeah, it's brilliant, I love it. 

Stephen Street: Beautiful yeah. Well that's when Dolores’s knowledge of choral music kind of, you know, and from her church years kind of really comes in. She had this lovely way of doing that. And that seemed to me then to set up, “No Need to Argue.” I think we'd already decided that “No Need to Argue” was going to be the last track on the record because really it's only just Dolores on that track. The boys aren't on that at all. And it was knowing that that was going to go last meant that “Daffodil Lament” had to go just before it. Because I, for me, the Gregorian chant ending of “Daffodil Lament” was going to take us into “No Need to Argue.” Yeah, I mean, I think it's something that I'm quite keen on doing. I mean, just kind of did that with The Smiths as well, you know, The Smiths albums. The running order was never put together by the label. It was always the band and myself, you know, if they wanted my input, you know, that'd be, “Oh, this is a great way to start the album or this is a great way to finish.” And you often get that when you're working on a record, you go, “This is a great way to start side one. Or that's definitely the end of the album. Perhaps this one should start side two.” Cause we were thinking of vinyl back then as well as CD, you know?

Fergal Lawler: Yeah the running order of albums was normally decided at the mixing stage, you know, when you're kind of, well, at the end of recording, really, you know, when you say, “Okay, the album is pretty much finished now.” And then what we do is the four of us and Steve would sit down in the studio and kind of do a playlist, but maybe two or three different running orders and we'd listen to them and everyone would throw their ideas in and say, “Oh, maybe put this song here.” Well, first of all, you have to decide which songs go on the album. So, we'd sit down and kind of decide, “Okay, maybe that's an A-side or that's a B-side. And everyone would put their arguments in. And then, running order would come next. You'd, you know, you'd start with  maybe something soft and then hit them with whatever is going to be the first single, second, and then kind of, you know, try and get a nice pace going where there's a couple of faster songs and then it kind of slows down and faster again, or, you know, and it's always like, for example, the song “No Need to Argue,” we knew that was going to be the very last track on the album. It's just obvious, you know, some songs are just obvious. That's definitely the last track, you know, to lead out with that. It's just beautiful. 

Yeah, there was an organ in the studio. That actually, I remember, now that you mention it, “No Need to Argue,” was only written when we were recording the album. After Dolores’s accident,  the skiing accident, she was in hospital with her leg up on a thing and she was going mad, she was like, “Can I get my acoustic guitar in here at least, you know I'm stuck in a fecking hospital bed all day, I can't do anything, I'm going mad.” So, I remember, myself, my wife, who was my girlfriend at the time, went down to visit Dolores in hospital and she had said, “Lads, I've got a new idea for a song.” And she started playing on an acoustic guitar and singing, “There's no need to argue.” And then, when, it came time to record, I think Stephen had the idea of maybe, trying the organ or I'm not sure maybe Dolores had said, “Maybe I'll try it on organ,” and there happened to be a nice Hammond organ in the studio so she, you know, she used to play organ as a kid since she was a young kid in the church, she'd played the church organ or whatever so she's familiar with it. And yeah just bashed out the song in really two or three takes I'd say and just it was really emotional and just really, she gave everything. And it's a beautiful song, you can really feel that, the history almost in it you know the sound of the organ that just triggers off so many memories for people. 

Stephen Street: There's a real organ Hammond and there's a synthesizer which I think sounds a bit like a pipe organ. I think it's a blend of two different things, yeah I think it's a pipe organ sample or simulator and then a real Hammond as well. Again, it was, that was, you know, kind of getting that right was kind of in the balance was kind of, not complicated, but a bit of thought was put into it to get that kind of bed. And I just think it was, it was obvious that we didn't really need the boys on this at all because the lyric is so personal and it's about Dplores coming to terms with a certain point of her life and saying, “There's no need to argue anymore. Moving on. It's done. You know, that is it. No need to argue. Let's just go our way.” And I just thought it needed to be really personal and we didn't need to have anything else get in the way. It needed to be just really kind of focusing on the lyric and the intent and the emotion. And so it was always kind of regarded, as soon as we recorded it, it was like, that's definitely how we're going to finish the record. 

So we finished the record. As I said, when we got back to London, she was recuperating with her bad knee. So she was only coming in occasionally just to come in and do her vocals while I was still finishing off bits and pieces with Noel and with John doing the strings and so on,  mixing it and so on and so forth. At the end of the record, we went for a kind of celebratory drink together in the local pub and Don was with her. This is the first time really, I really kind of got to meet Don properly. And yeah, I mean, sat down and then she said, “Oh, by the way, I think I would like to have a co-production credit on this record.” And I went, “Well, it's not the way it works. You haven't produced this record, I have.” And  there was a bit of a stand, well, a bit of a kind of weird atmosphere. The boys in the band are sitting there like that, going, “Oh my God, what's she asking for now?” You know, it was a bit, I could tell they were very embarrassed by it. I think it was definitely something that she was put up to by Don. I don't want to go into it too much because obviously, you know, with what's happened to Dolores and so on, but put it this way, it created a bit of an atmosphere. I said, “No, I don't agree.” She said, “Well, I wrote the string lines.” I said, “That doesn't mean you've co-produced the record.” You know, you've got to be there every minute of every day, putting the input in. And I said, you know, “I've had other people who've done more than you've done and they've never asked me for a co-production credit. So I'm not going to agree because you haven't co produced it.” And so he left it like that. It was a bit of a frosty atmosphere. I got a phone call from the management a day or two later saying, “Will you agree to this? If you don't, the band won't work with you again.” And I went, “Fine, but I'm not going to agree to it.” And that was it. And that was the reason why I wasn't involved with them for the next few years.

Fergal Lawler: I think someone from the outside was saying to Dolores, “Maybe you should do this, maybe you should say this.” So I think that's what happened. I think we all knew what Stephen brought to the table. And he was just an absolutely incredible producer. So that kind of wasn't something that we were worried about at all. It was just one of those things, I think. 

Stephen Street: I think not so much when we were making the record, but I could tell, especially the ego had flown as it were. I think I put it once, at the time when I was asked about this kind of a few years ago. And I don't think Don was helping. I think he was filling her head with ideas, you know, saying, “You're the talent, the boys are just kind of, you know, they're just this, they're that they just, but you're the main talent.” And I just thought it was wrong. And so I stood up for myself and also really for the boys, you know, and it's like, why should suddenly this lead singer of the band get this credit for being a co-producer when she hasn't co-produced. Now, if you give in there, you're going to give into everyone saying, “Well, I want a co-production credit. So, you know, I wrote the guitar lines.” It's like, “That's not how it works.” You know what I mean? It's like, you know, so as I say, I don't want to go into it too much, but yes, there was definitely, that was the only kind of black spot on the record really at the end. I think that's why she waited until the end. So I think she kind of got the feeling that I was going to say no anyway, but that was it. And that's the reason why, as I said, you know, I didn't work with them for the best part of a decade, I think after that, really. And, you know, I know I was right because later on they said they want to work with me again and they promised there would be no, there'd be no claims for co-production on it. You know, it would be, “You're the producer and we accept that.” And that was it. And that was why I was able to work with them again later on. And it was fine actually. When we did hook up again, you know, in the noughties, it was actually, it felt like family coming back together and we just picked up where we left off. It was really good. 

Fergal Lawler: It was exciting. I remember because we were very happy with it. We had a few friends come over to listen to it and all the reactions were great. Everyone thought it was fantastic. People from the record company came down and everyone loved it. You know, anyone that heard it loved it and kind of said, “This is something special.” We kind of had a good feeling about it and kind of felt, “Yeah, there's something working here. Everything's as it should be,” you know?

Stephen Street: Obviously now they've got to go out and tour this record for the next year and a half, whatever, you know, and that must've been quite a challenge because as I said, she had this bad knee injury that she kind of, when we had the ski trip and so she had to work on getting her fitness back again, you know, so to be able to go out there and do these performances. 

Fergal Lawler: We went off on tour. I remember we did a quick run up the East Coast of the States, we'd like played Atlanta, maybe Philly. We did a Central Park, it was a summer series or summer stage or something like that it was called. And then did the Woodstock ‘94. It  was like ‘94, yeah. And then, we were going off to Australia, and so we did a  tour of Australia, New Zealand, and Japan. So, I think as the album was gaining momentum, we were actually down  on the other side of the world and didn't realize how big it had gotten. And then when we came back to the States after we finished that. We landed in Seattle, I think, and did a full six months around the states again, and playing with the Grant Lee Buffalo. Great band, fantastic band. And they opened up for us for like one leg for two or three months or something like that. And it's just huge at that stage. You could feel the energy. I mean, everyone was, it's absolutely buzzing with the No Need to Argue, you know, you could see that it was really taking off. Dolores was definitely getting more comfortable by that stage at the whole frontwoman thing and kind of having fun with the audience and enjoying it rather than being nervous about the whole thing. And yeah I think she was, yeah, having fun and enjoying it. 

Stephen Street: I don't really hear the songs in a different way since Dolores is passing. All I really  think of is just, the memories, the times, you know. I remember, as I said, that New York session we did, we had a really good social evening as well. We went out together, me and the boys and Dolores and we had a really good night out. It just, it was actually our celebrating I think the fact that the first record, it was the first time we really got back together again, since doing the first album and, you know, knowing that we were going to start, you know, this one  and just seeing them really happy at the top and just being really kind of so excited with what was going to happen next. So I just got lots of really good memories with her. I think when I came back to work with her later on in the noughties, when we did Wake Up and Smell the Coffee and Roses and, and then, well, the posthumous album, you know, that's a different thing really. But I remember thinking that when I came back to work with her later on, that she'd been through a lot. And this is someone that's a bit scarred by what she's gone through. And I think there was something, you know, I think there was a little bit of a darkness there that wasn't there when we did this album. When we did this album, she was really happy because she was excited and she was, she had a new fellow in her life, you know, and she was happy. And so there's songs here that deal with loss and so on and so forth. But I've got to say, I think, I don't think I ever knew her more happy than she was when we were doing this album. 

I think what happened for me with this album, the second album, was that “Zombie” became so big, it kind of overshadowed everything else on the record. And good as “Zombie” is, for me it's not my favorite Cranberries track. It's great, but it's not, there's other songs I much prefer, and for a while I think “Zombie” overshadowed the rest of the album. But when, as I said, I've been listening to it again recently and actually I was really nicely surprised. I thought, “Actually this is, it really, it does sound good.” Dare I say so myself. But I was really struck. I thought, “Yeah we were good then. We did hit on something. We had something, it was something special going on in the studio every day.” And yeah, that's the great thing about making records, Dan, is that it's something you make, you go in, you've got an empty bit of tape, or it was tape back then, now it's hard drive, and you go in with some musicians, you mic them up, you create something, and it exists. It's there forever. It's done. It's a record. It's a record of that time, you know? And I love that. I really count myself very lucky that that's been my career really, is that I've been able to create these things with talented musicians. They're there, they can't be taken away, you know? We'll all kind of leave this, you know, this earth at one point but these records will still be there and that's a wonderful thing to have. We hit on something that was really really special and I really count myself very lucky to have been involved in a record that I know to this day is still enjoyed by millions of people and you can't put a price on that you really can't. And so I’m very very happy to say that this record exists and it's one of my favorite records I've ever worked on.

Fergal Lawler: It still sounds incredible. Listen to the songs, they don't seem to have aged. They don't sound dated to me and I'd be the first one to kind of, you know, you're always more critical of your own work than you would be of somebody else's, I think. And yeah, to listen back and go and go, “Whoa, geez, I can't believe it doesn't, there isn't like an old dated sound from a record that's 30 years-old. I mean, yeah, I wouldn't have expected that at the time, you know, I suppose you don't even think that far ahead when you release an album. You just think we've done all this work, now the album is out, really happy with it, it sounds great, I don't want to hear it (laughs) for another few years, you know, because you listen to songs over and over like hundreds of times in the studio, fine tuning every detail. So then by the time the album comes out, you don't want to hear any of those songs for years again. So it does take a long time to listen again. And I mean, when you hear, usually it's “Zombie” you hear on the radio or “Ode to My Family” or whatever, and they still sound great. They still sound great. They don't sound dated, which is a nice feeling. You know, “Everything I Said,” “Disappointment,” those softer songs, “Dreaming My Dreams.” They always kind of bring a lump to my throat when I hear them because you can really hear Dolores's voice in an intimate setting. And it's difficult to listen to. And yeah, it just makes me feel very emotional, but very proud as well. And I know she'd be very proud to have No Need to Argue being celebrated as a 30-year anniversary album. You know, it's a big milestone. 30 years is a long time. 

Outro:

Dan Nordheim: Visit lifeoftherecord.com for more information about The Cranberries. You’ll also find a full transcript of this episode and a link to purchase No Need to Argue. Instrumental music by The Low Field. Thanks for listening. 

Credits:

"Ode to My Family" (O'Riordan/Hogan)

"I Can't Be with You" (O'Riordan/Hogan)

"Twenty One" (O'Riordan/Hogan)

"Zombie" (O'Riordan)

"Empty" (O'Riordan/Hogan)

"Everything I Said" (O'Riordan/Hogan)

"The Icicle Melts" (O'Riordan)

"Disappointment” (O'Riordan/Hogan)

"Ridiculous Thoughts" (O'Riordan/Hogan)

"Dreaming My Dreams" (O'Riordan)

"Yeat's Grave" (O'Riordan)

"Daffodil Lament" (O'Riordan)

"No Need to Argue" (O'Riordan)

Music by O’Riordan/Hogan except where noted. Lyrics by O’Riordan.

Produced and engineered by Stephen Street. Assisted by Julie Gardiner.

All tracks recorded at The Manor Studios, Oxford and Townhouse, London

Except for “Everything I Said” and “Yeat’s Grave” recorded in the Magic Shop, New York. Assisted by Edward Douglas.

℗ & © 1994 Island Records Inc.

Episode Credits: 

Intro/Outro Music:

“Gather” by The Low Field from their self-titled album

Episode produced, edited and mixed by Dan Nordheim

Additional mixing and mastering by Jeremy Whitwam